bourbon wrote:I don't like Zappa. I used to love Zappa. I have been reformed. I don't think he is worthy of a crap vote because he's not the Eagles or anything but I still think he really sucks. I used to love Zappa. I own probably several dozen Zappa albums, some original vinyl collectibles, several double "you can't do that on stage anymore cd's, etc. Most of his music is emotionless, smug, proficiency exercises. Boring. He's not funny. I used to think he was funny and when I was 19. I know his music is difficult to play and he employs lots of excellent musicians but who fucking cares. Good musicians often play bad music. His sense of harmony is redundant. His counterpoint is terrible. So many unison lines played by instruments who's timbres don't mix well. I'm talking of his "classical" works. Any composition major who thinks they are clever could write this drivel. I don't give a shit if he's published in the real book. I appreciate the fact that he's probably opened some people up to new forms of music and his battles with the PMRCand some of his intelligent political commentary and am certainly not glad he is dead but I doubt he will be remembered as a great composer. It's really smug boring shit.

You're a good man for voting not crap. I disagree with your comment that a composition major could write his stuff. I know a composition graduate who is 10 years out of college and has had her compositions played by many a metropolitan orchestra. She enjoys Zappa's compositions. Organizations that promote modern music have recognized Zappa to be among the best composers of the 20th century... yes, a fairly long list, but he's on it.

Where specifically is his use of counterpoint terrible. Please mention an example.

The unison thing is a great technique for doing what many people do nowadays with MIDI. But you couldn't do it back then. Listening to those unison parts on something like St. Alphonzo's or Inca Roads reveals pretty interesting uses of rhythms, mainly the mix of 64th, 32nd, 16th, 8th, notes, rests, etc. Not really a pattern that you'd hear anywhere...

But still, a good man for voting not crap. At least you see that there are some redeeming qualities in his music...

Now, by his "classical" works, do you mean modern compositions (Jazz From Hell, Yellow Shark, Civilization Phase III), or his classics (MOI, or 70's or both?)?

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:

You need to accept that somebody can listen to Zappa, recognize that it's complex, recognize that it's original, recognize that it's unique and influential and artistic and respected by avant garde groups and all that stuff, and still dislike it

Is it "crap" though? Is it not worth anyone listening to. Keep in mind, people may read this wondering whether it's worth listening to Zappa or not. You yourself admit that it's complex, original, unique, respected, etc.

You have a very strange threshold for what is crap. I mean, I don't like Bach, but it's not crap.

Now, I'm not sure. I think a big part of the reason I changed to "Crap" was that I had just been listening to Zappa, and listening to unpleasant music puts me in a bad mood. And a big part of the reason I stuck with "Crap" is because you were so unfuckingpleasant and condescending about it - which is completely unfair of me. Now, after a good night's sleep, I have to think about this, and I guess I would say Not Crap again, not for being complex (this is not necessarily a good thing) or for being respected (this either - see: Elvis Presley), but for being original, unique, and influential. Or maybe still Crap, just for being so needlessly cluttered and showoffy. I don't know anymore.

For the people reading this who are "wondering whether it's worth listening to Zappa or not": yes, it is worth a listen, if you want a complete musical education. Of course, I would say the same thing about Aerosmith or the Sex Pistols, both Crap. If you aren't interested in that, but want to hear music you will enjoy, then that depends on your taste, de gustibus non disputandum est and all that. If you like weird for weird's sake, art for art's sake, jazz fusion, a lot of changes, and some real tricky composition and arrangement, then check it out. If you want something with some soul, some sincerity, some energy, or an emotional connection, I'd say - respect the man, don't bother with the music.

Part of my intent is to clear up the misunderstanding about Zappa.

Well, you certainly helped me there. I gave an honest listen to several songs sampled from what you consider among his best albums, and revised my opinion based on that. I thought that was more or less what you wanted people to do. Then, I took shit from you for doing that, so whatever.

stewie wrote:Thought this was funny - from this weeks Onion:

Frank Zappa Fan Thinks You Just Haven't Heard The Right Album

NEDERLAND, CO?In spite of your insistence that you are not into Frank Zappa, avid fan Roger Von Lee believes that you would change your mind if you heard the right album. "You're prejudiced, because the only Zappa you know is 'Valley Girl' and 'Don't Eat The Yellow Snow,'" Von Lee told you Tuesday. "Seriously, you need to check out Hot Rats or Absolutely Free. Zappa and the Mothers were at their peak, and Zappa's jazz-rock fusion experiments predate Bitches Brew. That'll totally convince you that Zappa's the shit." Von Lee added that if those two don't get under your skin, he can recommend another 15 to 20 albums that will for sure.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:2. It is obvious that the people who *persist* with attacks on Zappa haven't heard one of his good albums...

Nice sense of irony there W_Z

I am a huge fan of FZ and the vast majority of his work.

FZ=N/C
Being an obsessive Zappa evangelist/otaku=C

Linus Van Pelt wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:

You need to accept that somebody can listen to Zappa, recognize that it's complex, recognize that it's original, recognize that it's unique and influential and artistic and respected by avant garde groups and all that stuff, and still dislike it

Is it "crap" though? Is it not worth anyone listening to. Keep in mind, people may read this wondering whether it's worth listening to Zappa or not. You yourself admit that it's complex, original, unique, respected, etc.

You have a very strange threshold for what is crap. I mean, I don't like Bach, but it's not crap.

Now, I'm not sure. I think a big part of the reason I changed to "Crap" was that I had just been listening to Zappa, and listening to unpleasant music puts me in a bad mood. And a big part of the reason I stuck with "Crap" is because you were so unfuckingpleasant and condescending about it - which is completely unfair of me. Now, after a good night's sleep, I have to think about this, and I guess I would say Not Crap again, not for being complex (this is not necessarily a good thing) or for being respected (this either - see: Elvis Presley), but for being original, unique, and influential. Or maybe still Crap, just for being so needlessly cluttered and showoffy. I don't know anymore.

For the people reading this who are "wondering whether it's worth listening to Zappa or not": yes, it is worth a listen, if you want a complete musical education. Of course, I would say the same thing about Aerosmith or the Sex Pistols, both Crap. If you aren't interested in that, but want to hear music you will enjoy, then that depends on your taste, de gustibus non disputandum est and all that. If you like weird for weird's sake, art for art's sake, jazz fusion, a lot of changes, and some real tricky composition and arrangement, then check it out. If you want something with some soul, some sincerity, some energy, or an emotional connection, I'd say - respect the man, don't bother with the music.

Part of my intent is to clear up the misunderstanding about Zappa.

Well, you certainly helped me there. I gave an honest listen to several songs sampled from what you consider among his best albums, and revised my opinion based on that. I thought that was more or less what you wanted people to do. Then, I took shit from you for doing that, so whatever.

Look. All I said is that if the Sex Pistols are your favorite band, you will not like Zappa. I said you need to appreciate jazz to "get" Zappa. YOU inferred this as elitist. I think you have issues with this. You also seem to get very mad if someone doesn't agree with you.

I've been laughing my ass off the whole time. This is fun for me. Our development network has been down at work for a few weeks, so this had really entertained me, as well as providing a way to help erase the misunderstood representation of Zappa in the popular media. The other thing you inferred as being "elitist" is my argument about pop music. It is unfortunately true that Zappa's popular music (like many artists - Genesis and Yes) is his most godawful crap. His best works are unpalatable to most people. I don't look down on them, but face it. It's a fact that popular music is geared towards mediocrity, because they want to sell to as many people as possible. This is similar to the lack of difference between the Democrats and Republicans. They're Tweedledum and Tweedledee. They have to do that because if either side gets too extreme, they will alienate their base of support.

I never said I was better than anyone for liking Zappa, modern composers, or jazz. You made up all of these arguments and blew them out of proportion. Now I have to hear about how I was " so unfuckingpleasant and condescending about it ". You should probably smell yourself once in a while, because you stink. You're the one with the condescending sarcasm and angry exaggerations of what I said. What? Because I said you might not like Zappa if your favorite band is the Sex Pistols?!?

The reasons I said you won't like Zappa if your favorite band is the Sex Pisols are two fold:

1. This is probably the truth. I still await the person who thinks Sid Vicious rules, and is sporting an imperial. Prove me wrong.

2. I don't want someone who only likes punk to take my suggestions for Zappa listenings and say "You jerk. You made me spend $.99 at iTunes for St. Alphonso's piece of hippy shit. I mean there's a trumpet and xylophone on that."

You know, as well as I, that many here (but probably not the majority) only like bands that make waka-waka on the geetar. That's great that they like it.

If I can get on my soap box, I think the preference for average music that fits into tired genres really destroys any true artists chances to make a living doing what they do best. (a bit of a run-on, sorry!) It breaks my heart to hear about Dave Kerman, who was so broke he didn't even have a drum set. It breaks my heart that Magma, Univers Zero, and Present can only get a few shows back east. That's it. Not enough interest anywhere else. I emailed Roger Trigaux, and asked if they were playing out west. He replied that there wasn't any interest anywhere else.

I know people can have their opinions. But their opinions make it hard for me to enjoy what I consider to be quality entertainment. Resources to promote, market, and back musical talent are fixed. I think it's a sad world when we spend this money mostly on douche bags. And I think, to a big extent, the customers are to blame. However, the industry plays a major role in ensuring the delivery of a homogeneous, market-tested product. These people are still called "artists" at the Grammy's, though...

That said, a few people slip through. Peter Gabriel, in my opinion, is one. Frank Zappa was another, but he did quite a bit of damage to his own career. In the last 5 years of his life, it is evident that he wanted to make sure he was remembered for more than "titties and beer". That's why he did modern compositional work like "The Yellow Shark", "Jazz From Hell", and "Civilization Phase III". The Yellow Shark has compositions he wrote in the 60's, so he was returning to what I always felt he did best... making adventurous music.

night_tools wrote:

stewie wrote:Thought this was funny - from this weeks Onion:

Frank Zappa Fan Thinks You Just Haven't Heard The Right Album

NEDERLAND, CO?In spite of your insistence that you are not into Frank Zappa, avid fan Roger Von Lee believes that you would change your mind if you heard the right album. "You're prejudiced, because the only Zappa you know is 'Valley Girl' and 'Don't Eat The Yellow Snow,'" Von Lee told you Tuesday. "Seriously, you need to check out Hot Rats or Absolutely Free. Zappa and the Mothers were at their peak, and Zappa's jazz-rock fusion experiments predate Bitches Brew. That'll totally convince you that Zappa's the shit." Von Lee added that if those two don't get under your skin, he can recommend another 15 to 20 albums that will for sure.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:2. It is obvious that the people who *persist* with attacks on Zappa haven't heard one of his good albums...

Nice sense of irony there W_Z

I am a huge fan of FZ and the vast majority of his work.

FZ=N/C
Being an obsessive Zappa evangelist/otaku=C

No. It's the truth and not irony. That "Onion" article uses stereotypes as humor. Stereotypes usually have some "seed" of truth. The reason it's funny is because Zappa fans always do this, because it is the truth. It's true about so many other artists than Zappa. I think I don't need to explain the effects of business on music again.

"Don't Eat The Yellow Snow" is not even a Zappa song. It's called "Nanook Rubs It". So even the Onion's satire of a Zappa fan is flawed, in that a real Zappa fan would know that. The humor of Von Lee is compromised at that point. The Onion dork who wrote that was too lazy to even google the correct name for that song.

Of course, Stewie, who posted it and thought it was so funny, wouldn't even know that he's laughing at pretty poor quality satire... That, to me, is ironic! He doesn't even know enough about Zappa to know "Yellow Snow" is not a song, then laughs at satire about a Zappa fan that would try to point out the good things the man has done.

On second thought, the Onion thing is funny on a few levels... Not so much by itself, but how it has been presented here.

That's fine if you think being an obsessive Zappa evangelist is crap. I own more Zappa records than any other artist. He's directly influenced so many other artists that I listen to (UZ, Henry Cow to name a few in the avant-garde vein). I thought it was funny that capnreverb said they're a Henry Cow rip off. Hey capn... If you want Chris Culter's email address, go to the ReR website. I also have it, as I sent him an email a while back offering help with mathematics for his new solo album. Tell him you think Zappa is crap and they ripped off Henry Cow. Then post what he writes back...

I personally think saying you're a Zappa fan for so long, and then writing one sentence of it, and then dedicating twice as much time to "diss" me is crap. Yep, total crap.

If it bothers you so much, why are you hear reading it? Do you specialize in crap?

It's funny how annoyed people get, how they say they want the crap/not crap debate to not have comments, etc. by POSTING MORE COMMENTS.

Sanctimony at it's best... Oh, did someone say irony too? "Irony" is tonight's secret word.

placeholder wrote:It seems like you have a hard time understanding that musical taste cannot be quantified...Every opinion is valid to the person who has it...There is no right or wrong musical taste. I cannot fathom why you have trouble with this.

Yeah. How could I think such a thing on a crap/not crap debate about Zappa. Did I mention tonight's secret word?

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:

placeholder wrote:It seems like you have a hard time understanding that musical taste cannot be quantified...Every opinion is valid to the person who has it...There is no right or wrong musical taste. I cannot fathom why you have trouble with this.

Yeah. How could I think such a thing on a crap/not crap debate about Zappa. Did I mention tonight's secret word?

If "tonight's secret word" is "Fugazi", "keyboards", "Sex Pistols", "hoodie", "wallet chain", "Fugazi", "keyboards", or "Canadian tour", then yes, you have mentioned it.

It's "Fugazi", right?

Sticky wrote:I just have to bump this one. Sorry. At least on this one I can understand the controversy; I fully expected there to be faction, but so many "craps" and not one serious rebutal? Where the hell is the Zappa evangelist on these boards? EDIT: Nevermind, I found them, whew.

NOT CRAP. Not even close to crap. :WF: of negative. On a case by case level, there are certainly songs, or even albums, that might get the crap vote, but over all.... EDDIE, ARE YOU KIDDING!?!?! First of all, he didn't have "albums", he had records (of an event; of people, playing music, in a room--get out of my head, Ani!), and a few of them are only meaningful, or more meaningful, if you understand their circumstances. That limits their full enjoyability to foggies, anthropologists, and zappateers. Actually, there's no point in justifying those songs as "not crap" because none of you have heard them, anyway.

For that matter, you probably haven't heard any of it. At least one of you voted "crap" cause you were bored and trigger-happy. Or your brother's girlfriend's fuck-buddy played you the Ishtar soundtrack while you were high and you thought she said it was Zappa.

He didn't write (much) commercial shit for you to hear, over and over, from your favorite clear channel provider. Even if his music hadn't been banned all over the place, and you had *gasp* heard some of it, I can't guarantee you'd like it; It's too smart for you (or too stupid). The man was a genius, musically and otherwise. He composed in what most people would consider 4-6 completely different genres, and fabulously so in all of them. He is, to use a clich鬠one of the GREAT American composers. His classical stuff is killer (at least, on occasion), his rock is nearly unrivaled, and his satire is relentless. The progress he made for us all socially, culturally and musically will never be forgotten, but always underappreciated. All of you stopped reading three paragraphs ago, so why go on? Bottom line: Don't knock it 'till you've tried it. "But I have heard it, it's crap..." Grow up. Take your head out of your ass--the accoustics are better--and try again. If you want a recomendation, PM me.
NOT CRAP.

Oh, fuck... I see. I'm taking the heat for this guy. Shit... It's funny... This guy comes out and says "it's too smart for you" and "take your head out of your ass" and I end up getting my ass chewed off (well, at least people tried to do that) for being an elitist... Ahh, nothing like misdirected anger. I feel like I'm at a Shellac show!

Did anyone actually read what I wrote, or just started this shit because I was the last post on the stack in favor of FZ?

Yeah, this guy is the one making the elitist statements. Take it out on him, not me...

This will be a short one, as I have just enjoyed a hamburger sandwich (with Grey Poupon) and a glass of bourdeaux...

There are a shit load of books that are about Zappa. And a shit load of books that are not about Zappa, but will include Zappa as a key figure in history...

A one second lazy-ass search revealed this... (I was actually looking for evidence of a connection between Post Modernism and Frank Zappa. I feel he was one of the first Post Modernists, though he did not coin this term)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874778549/104-3204910-3620701

card catalog description for Creators on Creating wrote:Within the pages of Creators on Creating lies an impressively diverse collection of writings by world-famous artists, musicians, writers, scientists, and filmmakers who have provided us with joy, illumination, and profundity through their craft. In this anthology we learn how they foster and harness the power behind their awesome gift, and we comprehend the responsibility that accompanies it. Richard Feynman and Annie Dillard relate how they opened their minds to new insights, paths, and trajectories, and Federico Fellini and Henry Miller shed light on the passion that drove their creativity. Mary Shelley and Michel Foucault describe how they used their imagination to challenge existing assumptions, customs, and orders; Maya Angelou, Brian Eno, and Tony Kushner tell of the wisdom they garnered by working within a creative ecology of people, ideas, and experiences; Leonardo da Vinci and Frank Zappa reveal how they balanced freedom and exploration with hard work and mastery of their craft; and Laurence Olivier and Karen Finley give us the "courage to go naked." Inspirational and insightful, practical and idealistic, this collection is an invitation to engage some of the world's most artistic and ingenious people in a rewarding dialogue.

So yes... Many may not realize Zappa's greatness, and may have bought into his pop-culture representation. The truth is out there, though... Whether you like it or not, he will be remembered, long after most rock stars are forgotten. Sure, SBC will have Clapton-clad commercials to appeal to the 60's generation that has spending power. When they are in their 80's, Clapton's music will be on commercials for home medical supplies. When they are dead, Clapton will die with them.

Zappa will live on. Deal with it.

Linus Van Pelt wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I think Big Swifty is better than Bitches Brew. I also think, musicologically speaking, that it has qualities that make it a better and more interesting piece of music.

What?! You think it has qualities that make it better and more interesting?! So, you can conceive of the possibility that some people might think that those qualities, musicologically speaking, might make it worse, and more tedious? Or do you have some "proof" that all this hypercomplexity makes music better? Or... is that just your opinion? Yes, it is just your opinion.

Wow. You edited out the other 4 or 5 paragraphs where I did discuss the music. You also bolded text (edited my emphasis... I did not bold those words) to prove your big lie. No wonder people that I respect are hinting that I'm not listening. You're editing the substance out of what I say.

Look, your sampling might make you a smash hit on the dj scene, but please try to keep a realistic representation of what I say.

I really would like to discuss the music. So far I've done this. Capnreverb has done this, sort of. I dunno. W/J doesn't sound like Return to Forever at all. It seems like all of the evidence he presents is simply a negation of my review (many pages ago). Point by point and in sequence... Still, hats off to him for at least commenting on Zappa's music.