Rick Reuben wrote:

DrAwkward wrote: The idea of a life where all you know is run run run run and then suddenly your existence is pain and confusion and more pain and then finally nothing at all...ugh. I guess i just know that i'd hate to be a horse, even a pampered one born and raised to win money for my fat owner.

Well, sure, but if you take that approach to the extreme, we'd have to ban all farm animals, because they all work for man. Either you accept that animals serve man or you don't. If you don't, then your opposition has to be absolute- no race horses, no plow horses, no horses for cops, no horses for cowboys, no horses for other equestrian sports. If you accept that it is permissible for animals to serve man, then you have to accept horse racing and then work for a proper balance between exploitation of the animals and the animals' welfare.

When you said "had it not been for horse racing, she wouldn't have been born at all," all that made me think was "well, maybe it had been better had she not been born in the first place?" I dunno, it speaks to a larger existential question about quanity vs. quality of life that i debate with myself across all sorts of issues.

Now you're getting into the abortion argument. Abortion supporters argue that a child born to parents ( usually, parent ) who do not want the baby and are not prepared to take care of it is better off being killed in the womb. Abortion opponents say that all life is sacred and humans should never terminate it. I guess that the 'right to life' position with regards to thoroughbred breeding would be 'make as many horses as you like and let God sort out who grows old and who breaks both ankles'. The pro-abortion side would say 'don't breed the horses- I don't accept the risk that some will die on the track'.

Rick Reuben wrote:

DrAwkward wrote:i'm not gonna judge what someone does for a living if i don't know their goddamn life story.

But people need to be consistent. Here, you're saying that a person should not be judged on the way he makes a living, if it contradicts with his personal philosophy. If you agree with that, then it's hypocritical to be intolerant of someone's message if you diagree with something else about the messenger.

I'll illustrate.

Person A: "The Federal Reserve is illegal, debt is slavery, the money is dishonest. Let me show you the evidence."

Person B: "No, thanks. I distrust your motives."

A: "But the evidence is the evidence."

B: "Sorry. I've found something I dislike about you, so I'll ignore your evidence. I did the same thing with Ron Paul."

In the case above, Person B is using unrelated issues to make judgements about the quality of Person A's evidence. But, according to your statement above, you believe that a person who takes a job in an industry he opposes should not have that decision reflect on the quality of his philosophy.

Why is it okay for someone to get a free pass in one direction- "I won't judge a man for what he does to pay his bills."- but not okay for someone to get a free pass in the other direction? Why is it permissible to ignore a message about the banking system, based on an opinion about the person bringing the message? It's hypocritical. If you say that a person's work doesn't make you judge him, then why judge a person's message based on your judgement of the person?

It looks like these decisions are just made for convenience and political correctness more than anything. If it's convenient to still like a person who works building bombs, then you overlook his job and continue to like that person. If it's convenient to make an excuse for ignoring evidence about banking based on some other problem you have with the messenger, then that 'other problem' becomes the central issue and is not overlooked.

There's no consistency. It's like, you'll make excuses for others when it suits you, and deny the excuses when it doesn't.

Rick wrote:

Ruffian wrote:I sound really preachy, but I've been working with horses for so long

Why have you worked so long in this field if you have so many moral complaints about it?

Doesn't add up.

Chromodynamic wrote:It sure does sound like a lot of fun, going to the Kentucky derby.

Rick Reuben wrote:I'm saying that the same rules need to be enforced both ways.

As someone who loves the game, I would like to defend racing by explaining that such breakdowns are not an everyday occurrence. I could argue that racing has been terribly unlucky that so many catastrophic events have occurred in high-profile races seen by a nationwide television audience. The sport is not inhumane. It is not brutal. It is not barbaric.

But Eight Belles was a tragic manifestation of a problem that is more pronounced every year. America's breeding industry is producing increasingly fragile thoroughbreds. They may not break down, but they have shorter and shorter racing careers before going to stud to beget even more fragile offspring.

The facts are irrefutable. In 1960, the average U.S. racehorse made 11.3 starts per year. The number has fallen almost every year, and now the average U.S. thoroughbred races a mere 6.3 times per year. Almost every trainer whose career spans the decades will acknowledge that thoroughbreds aren't as robust as they used to be.

There are at least two good explanations for this phenomenon. In earlier eras, most people bred horses in order to race them, and they had a stake in the animals' soundness. By contrast, modern commercial breeders produce horses in order to sell them, and if those horses are unsound, they become somebody else's problem. Because buyers want horses with speed, breeders have filled the thoroughbred species with the genes of fast but unsound horses.

Rick Reuben wrote:Like I said, I did argue against the content of his post. He's wrong across the board right here:

ruffian wrote:They're dirt cheap, a dime a dozen, and there's almost no homes for them.

Turbo wrote:Oh, it is. Mint Julips, rich wankers, college kids, $7 domestic drafts, and all the fake boobs you can handle.

TB, looked sound, harness marks - $350
3 BIG untouched Percheron broodmares - $275 a piece to the killer
Very nicely built and nicely colored Paint weanling - $100
Not as nicely built or marked Paint weanling, burrs in mane and tail - $20
BIG dark red dun QH, lots of white, sound but we couldn't touch him earlier - $350 to the killer
Cute little sorrel QH type weanling - $100
Pair of large grade ponies, cute, couldn't catch them earlier - $150 pair to the killer
Thin old sorrel mare - $40 to the killer
Big bay QH, we caught him earlier and he wasn't broke - $600
QH type weanling, sorrel - $60
Quiet teenage QH - $150
Very sweet and gentle QH mare that we caught and rode earlier, lame in her hip - $50 to the killer
Scrawny but nicely marked grulla paint, good size, would have bid but we couldn't catch him earlier - $40 to the killer
Several Belgians in a row, all sound, we rode a few, they went for $200-250 to the killer, one went for $300 to the Amish
Lame old Standardbred - $150 to the killer
Super sweet Standardbred, harness marks, looked like he'd been through a WAR, lame on all four legs, scrapes everywhere - $100 to the killer
Standardbred - $275 to the killer
UGLY but DUN donkey, really overweight and kicked the shit out of everything - $160
Standardbred, harness marks - $250 to the killer
Cute QH mare, we rode her earlier, gentle and sweet, bay, sound - $225
Standardbred, big - $300 to the killer
TB, neurological or vision problems, cute chestnut - $50 to the killer
Young Haflinger, under 2, we couldn't get near him earlier but he was cute - $30 to the killer
Standardbred, lame - $30 to the killer
QH type - $125
Appy.. (that's all I wrote??) - $275
Really loud, stout Appy gelding, good looking, tried to rear when we rode him and beat the shit out of the other horses in the pen - $40 to the killer
Pair of teenage grey Percheron geldings, scared to death to be there, huddled in the back of the kill pen and defended each other - $60 FOR THE PAIR to the killer
The thickest Belgian gelding I've ever seen (he looked like a cartoon horse), really quiet, we rode him, under 10, had an infection and swelling in a rear leg but was sound on it - $225 to the killer
Standardbred, harness marks - $250 to the killer
HUGE Clyde cross mare, hadn't been ridden in three years but rode and drove, we rode her around and she was quiet, bay, lots of chrome, 12 - $600
Draft mule, baby of the clyde mare, 4 years old, never been touched, close to 17 hands - $250
4 year old paint mare, supposedly broke to ride but spooked when we tried to get on her, nice markings, 3-400 pounds underweight - $100
Paint mare's ugly ass untouched weanling - $30
BIG nice Canadian TBs with papers, 5 year old mare, was at the track last spring, sound - $375
other TB mare, 13 year old, momma to above - $300
Four of the sweetest TBs, they were all love, straight from the track. One was lame in the shoulder, one in the hip, and one was lame on all four legs. The fourth was sound. They all went for under $300, two went to the killer.
Big grey mare, supposedly ex-polo pony, $200 to the killer

Our purchases:

Cole, young QH/TB?? bay, quiet and sweet, good weight, wasn't ridden in but they said 'broke to ride' (haha) - $135
Blue, 6-8 year old palomino pony gelding, lots of chrome, blue eyes, really skinny, wormy, and covered in rainrot. This guy doesn't have great conformation (OK it's horrible) but he was SO SWEET and quiet in the pen, we figured with some weight and little bit of finishing he'll be a cute kid's pony. - $90
Isaac, bay QH, late teens. This guy is also SUPER quiet, he is skinny and really wormy, but a very nice little horse. - $10
Polly, aged black pony mare. We felt so sorry for this girl, she deserves to be a kid's Christmas present. Absolutely bombproof, and even at this age, sound!! - $30 (Pictured)
Layla, teenage grey Arab cross. This girl we saw right at the last minute. She's tall and sound, very prissy but a nice little ride. - $85

Ruffian wrote:I don't wanna really touch the argument about animals being slaves. I think my horses are pretty happy. I also think that if horses were reasoners, they'd pick a lot of lives over the racehorse life.