P.S. Nice armitron gcbv

interesting books:

God In The Dock
More Than A Carpenter

anybody who's read either of those, it would be great if you could share your likes, dislikes, agreements, disagreements.

cursedby11 wrote:you say religion is a simple approach of solving complex problems..... How is religion a simple approach?

Easy. Take a complex issue - abortion, euthanasia, etc - with a large gray area and a lot of "what ifs" and say "THE BIBLE SAYS THIS IS WRONG, END OF DISCUSSION." Sounds pretty god-damn simple to me.

Then, realize how easy that was and start applying the same principle to just about every issue. I mean, there's no debate, is there? The Bible doesn't have gray areas on these issues - it doesn't permit some euthanasia or some gay marriage or some adultery.

When people refuse to recognize that there are gray areas to be debated with these issues, they are simplifying them. If one's attitude toward abortion is "It's wrong, period, all of it" I'd say that's a pretty phenomenal oversimplification that fails to take a lot of practical questions into account.[/i]

ginandtacos.com wrote:

cursedby11 wrote:you say religion is a simple approach of solving complex problems..... How is religion a simple approach?

Easy. Take a complex issue - abortion, euthanasia, etc - with a large gray area and a lot of "what ifs" and say "THE BIBLE SAYS THIS IS WRONG, END OF DISCUSSION." Sounds pretty god-damn simple to me.

Then, realize how easy that was and start applying the same principle to just about every issue. I mean, there's no debate, is there? The Bible doesn't have gray areas on these issues - it doesn't permit some euthanasia or some gay marriage or some adultery.

When people refuse to recognize that there are gray areas to be debated with these issues, they are simplifying them. If one's attitude toward abortion is "It's wrong, period, all of it" I'd say that's a pretty phenomenal oversimplification that fails to take a lot of practical questions into account.[/i]

Amen, brother.

People who tend to prefer the black/white simplification of the complexities of life, society, experience seek a simple life through absolutism. Absolutism was also the ideological basis and goal of Nazism and Fascism. I find it very easy to equate religion with these ideologies, since both are based in the same fundimental motives of absolutism. I see very little difference in the implementation of Biblical tenants and Mao's Little Red Book. They both seek the same ends, and can and are used to justify inhumanity and social homogenization.

hey steve, sorry i haven't posted the references yet. i haven't forgotten, i just wanted to get a more thorough list for you to check out before i post. pending other school work that needs to get done this week, i can hopefully have those up by either thursday or friday.

also, i just noticed

gcbv wrote:I can, my friend, remember several instances in various Christian Churches in my youth where I had conversations with preachers, ministers, and "elders" where I was told quite plainly that the Crusades brought the teachings of Christ to the heathens and unlearned.

that's a bunch of b.s. in the highest form, and i'm probably very fortunate that i never had to hear a whole lot of that. the crusades brought nothing but death. probably one of the largest failures in history.

laslo wrote:

unarmedman wrote:A woman can make a decision before she gets pregnant. A child never gets to make the choice.

What choice is that? To have sex?

that's the choice exactly, yes.

Because accidents do happen. Birth control does fail. I guess no woman should ever have sex until she is ready willing to give birth to a child. Egads.

any woman or man who chooses to wait for the reasons you listed has made a rational decision and i have no problem seeing the value in that. i can even respect it. egads nothing.

only here wrote:

laslo wrote:

unarmedman wrote:A woman can make a decision before she gets pregnant. A child never gets to make the choice.

What choice is that? To have sex?

that's the choice exactly, yes.

Because accidents do happen. Birth control does fail. I guess no woman should ever have sex until she is ready willing to give birth to a child. Egads.

any woman or man who chooses to wait for the reasons you listed has made a rational decision and i have no problem seeing the value in that. i can even respect it. egads nothing.

No, please no, not again.
LOOKY OVER HERE: http://www.electrical.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3804&highlight=abortion

steve wrote:If I hear from enough people that the Bible is the moral compass for man, then I am obliged to familiarize myself with it. If I hear from these same people that the Bible is their source for political and social positions, then I am obliged to take it seriously, as they do. If these moral, political and social positions have an impact on me and my friends, then I am obliged to hold them accountable for them, and the Bible, if it is a part of the argument.

I would happily ignore it (except for the good parts about loving the least of us, all of us being brothers, greed being wrong, punishment being reserved away from fickle mankind, etc.), but I am not allowed to because Christians keep throwing it up on the table for discussion. I am not afraid of them, and I am willing to look at their Bible for myself, rather than take their word for it that it means something.

If they would let us, we would stop picking on it. They won't.

What I find hard to understand and reconcile, as a follower of Christ's teachings, is the focus by some christians on the Old Testament to use as a weapon to bludgeon others, this is also the focus of the Bible's detractors. Understandable. What's the difference between the OT and New Testament? Christ.

Without applying Christ's teachings, I am not a christian. I would question those that claim to be christians without exercising love for their fellow man. The most important teachings are love for God and our fellow man. Everything worth doing on this earth stems from this.

Why wouldn't one want to have some kind of understanding of their maker? Read the book of Job. We are cursed, as is the ground we walk on. The OT certainly makes sense in light of this. This life is far from fair. The good don't get what they deserve, nor do the bad. The first will be last, the last will be first. That refers to the world not as it is now, but as it will be after the day of judgement. Christ was here for redemption - to redeem the world. One day it will be redeemed and the meek will inherit the earth, but not as it is now, it will be a much finer home than it is now.

All of Christ's teachings point towards heaven, not towards the physical world. Many "christians" lose sight of this and they do use the Bible as a way to cease and maintain power in the name of God. This is nothing new - Christ was killed because he was a threat to the power of the religious leaders who felt they knew God better than God's own son!

I do feel ashamed by the actions of "christians", though in no way do I confuse the culture that has sprung up around christianity with christianity itself. I can accept the fact that others do. I certainly did for a time.

I don't go to church. I do read the Bible and try to follow Christ's teachings. I only speak for myself. I am a christian.

fuck the bible... golden rule, baybee!

chauncey wrote:Why wouldn't one want to have some kind of understanding of their maker? Read the book of Job. We are cursed, as is the ground we walk on. The OT certainly makes sense in light of this. This life is far from fair. The good don't get what they deserve, nor do the bad. The first will be last, the last will be first. That refers to the world not as it is now, but as it will be after the day of judgement. Christ was here for redemption - to redeem the world. One day it will be redeemed and the meek will inherit the earth, but not as it is now, it will be a much finer home than it is now.

Why this pessimism? "We are cursed..." Hooey. I can lie on my back in the grass with my girlfriend's hand in mine and hear the sound of twilight coming on -- crickets, bird calls (if I'm lucky, an owl), and think it impossible that anyone could feel cursed. I can listen to the hiss of an amplifier and rejoice, because I can hear it yet. Why cursed?

People die, get riddled with disease, swept out to sea on titanic waves, burned by fire, etc. This seems to be the luck of the draw. People can be imprisoned, tortured, lied to, etc. This seems to be the work of evil men. Blaming this on curses (devised by God? he clearly hates us then) is such a colossal, childish cop-out that I cannot take it seriously as a rationale for seeking guidance outside my own sense of things.

I see no God in any of it -- no "maker," only a huge web of existence that could only have come into being from eons making incremental changes in everything.

I know my makers: Frank and Gina, fine people. I know my world and its enormity -- I am overwhelmed by it -- and think it astounding that anyone could see the same world and think it lacks something, that there must be something more. I love my fellow men, even those I detest. I have no need for anything supernatural, because the real world is plenty, and I do not feel cursed.