To me, the differences in blackface vs. silverface Bassmen lie mostly in shrill transient details. Silverface amps have a tendency to do the "ice pick" thing as they get turned up more and more, blackface amps smooth out significantly at just halfway up the dial.

The "Bassman 70" ain't a bad sounding silverface amp, though, and is actually far more useful on a bass guitar than any blackface amp, in my opinion (more authority, higher headroom). You can get a bit more clarity out of them by removing the master volume but there's no shortage of clarity in those amps as is. Dime the preamp, turn up the master a couple-three dB below pain, and it's a pretty convincing blackface sound.

Dave ManReads wrote:

If you're in the UK, I'd also consider an old Selmer of some sort,

Just found these Selmer amps on ebay - appreciate your opinion!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Selmer-Re ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Selmer-Va ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Selmer-Treblenbas ... dZViewItem

They all look good to me, though the 100 PA` amp most likely needs to have the PSU filter caps replaced. Also if you decide to mod the thing to get high gain from it, you won't have to fuck the chassis up with new holes for extra ecc83's as you alread have them, as it's a six channel amp. When working properly, expect it to be louder than God. --If you practice at home, your neighbors will most assuredly hate you.

The other two are 50 watts, so they shouldn't be as loud as the PA head. Tonally speaking, the tone of old Selmers is somewhat like a cross between a JMI era Vox, and a 60's era Marshall, which is a lot smoother and nicer sounding than the Marshall TSL that you've played through. No Icepick highs and sandpaper distortion. --I haven't liked most of the stuff that Marshall has offered since the late 80's. Also, with a Marshall amp, you pretty much wind up sounding like almost everybody else that uses one, which is a LOT of people.

That being said, the other two most likely will need Filter caps as well, as the ones that are currently installed are most likely the 40 year old originals. With some decent tubes, they'll sound good, though the preamp tubes are probably still good, and most likely Mullards or Brimars.

The guitars on this were recorded with an old Selmer. You can also hear one in action on any of the old Syd Barrett era Pink Floyd releases, as he used a Stereomaster.

While you're at it, I'd also look for a Goodmans Audiom loaded speaker cabinet, as Selmer used Goodmans speakers in their amps.

Fender Bassmans, any of the above amps are most assuredly not, however original and differant, they most certainly are. --You should consider yourself lucky to live in a country where many classic amps like the above Selmer's are available cheap.

More info on Selmer amps can be found on this page.

The guitars on this were recorded with an old Selmer.

AAaaah! Youtoob tells me this video isn't available in my country! Don't they know how cheap the amps are!....and how DESPERATE I AM for amp-kudos? Bastards!

Seriously though thanks for the info - Syd Barrett is always a good reason to buy an amp (second though maybe to P. Green).

Is there any modern production amps that compare? Orange Thunderverb for example? Why does old-skool mean better? Is there any modern company doing something a bit spesh?

FWIW, here's the UK YouTube of the same video.

Dave ManReads wrote:1.Is there any modern production amps that compare?

2.)Orange Thunderverb for example?
3.)Why does old-skool mean better?
4.)Is there any modern company doing something a bit spesh?

1. Probably not, it's an old style amp w/o a master volume. This means that you get the amp to distort by cranking it up, or using a distortion pedal before the amp. Maybe the reissues by Marshall and Fender, but the build quality, and quality of componentry generally won't be as good.

2. No. The Orange Thunderverb to my knowledge is much differant than the old style Oranges that used a Baxendall Tonestack, and Cathodyne PI in their circuits, all of which contributed to the tonality of the older amps. I'm probably wrong on this, but I would assume that the current Thundeverbs use a Tweed Bassman/ Marshall/Traynor, etc,etc derived circuit.

3. Because when amps were made during the 50's,60's and early 70's, they were made at the hight of tube technology. Quality componentry was used throughout the amp. The Selmer's used Partridge transformers, and possibly Dagnalls transformers as well. During this time, the Partridges were considered to be the best available. Hiwatt and many other amps used them.

Current production style amps are for the most part made with a large amount of automated techniques that speed the production. This means that they are made with Printed circuit boards, which really isn't a bad thing, though this can be problematic if tubes, (Esp. Power Tubes) are mounted directly, as they can produce enough heat to damage the PCB. --Mid 80's Hiwatt amps manufactured by Sterling Imports had this problem when they mounted the power tubes to the PCB, and this caused production to cease before being revived .

Furthermore, current mass produced amps will almost always have the volume/tone pots and tiprings directly mounted to the PCB. This speeds the production of the amps, however it's a major pain to work on if you drob the amp on it's face and damage the controls. Also, the input jack is more likely to be an issue, as it takes a lot of strain by plugging/unplugging of cables, which can loosen the internal PCB mounting over time.

Contrast this with the above mentioned Selmer, as well as early Marshalls, and Fender and many other amps which were hand wired and soldered without a Printed Circuit Board. --These amps are much easier for a tech to work on because the components are directly soldered onto terminal lugs. A PCB has to be dismounted from the amp chassis in order to remove bad componants, and you run the risk of damaging a Printed circuit trace while changing out the componant. With a hand wired ( AKA, Point To Point, or PTP) circuit this problem doesn't exist.

Lastly, nearly all of the 'classic' guitar tones that you've heard were made through amps made from the 50's to the '70's.

4. There are a lot of Modern companies that sell high quality hand wired amps, expect to pay at least twice for one of them, than you would a mass produced amp. Example, here in the US, a reissue '68 Marshall 100 watt lists at about $1,600 with a street price of around $1,200. Their hand wired version of the same amp lists at @ $3,500, with a street price of @ $3,000.

Another example would be the Vox AC30 reissues from a few years ago. The ones with the PCB circuit listed a $1,600 with a street price of between $1,000 and $1,200. Their hand wired AC30 reissues listed at @ $3,200 to $3,600 and had a street value that stayed in the $3k range. --The skilled labor involved in the time consuming process of wiring a circuit raises the production costs, whereas you could probably train a monkey to push buttons on a machine that consumes Fiberglass boards and componants, and shits out a lot of finished circuit boards every hour.

Matchless, Cornford, Two Rock, Bad Cat and a lot of others are good examples of smaller companies that produce good amps, but they will certainly not beat the price of an older PTP amp.

PS, if that YouTube link is still blocked, it's The White Stripes 'Icky Thump'.

OKay, hi everybody, my first post. I was directed to this topic by Dave ManReads.

I've had a silverface bassman for a while, and for my money, it's hard to beat if you're the type who likes some breakup when you're plugged straight in.

Honestly, cranking this thing is my favorite overdrive sound on earth. I did the Great Destroyer's last demo through the Bassman, not that my AWESOME camera mic does any amp justice...

They all look good to me, though the 100 PA` amp most likely needs to have the PSU filter caps replaced. Also if you decide to mod the thing to get high gain from it, you won't have to fuck the chassis up with new holes for extra ecc83's as you alread have them, as it's a six channel amp. When working properly, expect it to be louder than God. --If you practice at home, your neighbors will most assuredly hate you.

Excellent and very helpful post thanks. Okay you've really piqued my interest here. Volume is actually a concern as the bassist in my band has a humungously loud Ampeg set-up and I'll need to be able to compete with the ribcage shattering volumes we play at (I currently hire an amp from the studio). So I guess this leads to two questions.

Can the 50 watt amps compete at this level? Or would I need to add other equipment to the mix for this and if so what?

If I spend the £125 on the PA that would allow much more cash for a full service and re-valve (mentioned by the seller) plus then getting the mods you mentioned in your post done (which I don't know what all that means but I fully defer to your knowledge!). This also entails finding someone in the UK who can do it. Would I be setting myself up for a real headache or is it actually all fairly straightforward? With the right guides could a laymen do this easily?

Honestly, cranking this thing is my favorite overdrive sound on earth. I did the Great Destroyer's last demo through the Bassman, not that my AWESOME camera mic does any amp justice...

Hi Aen! Glad to see the Lord of Dwarfcraft here. The sound on your vid aint bad - inspired me to buy the GD after all!

Dave ManReads wrote:Excellent and very helpful post thanks. Okay you've really piqued my interest here. Volume is actually a concern as the bassist in my band has a humungously loud Ampeg set-up and I'll need to be able to compete with the ribcage shattering volumes we play at (I currently hire an amp from the studio). So I guess this leads to two questions.

Can the 50 watt amps compete at this level? Or would I need to add other equipment to the mix for this and if so what?

If I spend the £125 on the PA that would allow much more cash for a full service and re-valve (mentioned by the seller) plus then getting the mods you mentioned in your post done (which I don't know what all that means but I fully defer to your knowledge!). This also entails finding someone in the UK who can do it. Would I be setting myself up for a real headache or is it actually all fairly straightforward? With the right guides could a laymen do this easily?

The 50 watt amp will hold up well with an SVT, and I've seen may bands with similar backlines.

The 100 watt amp will have some minor tonal differances over the 50 watt amp, but you will only see a 3db increase in volume standing in front of the amp. Where the extra wattage will be noticable, is well away from the amp, as the extra wattage 100 watt amp will push the sound further, and fill a large room better. -- Conversely, a 50 watt amp will piss of your immediate neighbors, whilst a 100 watt amp will allow you to spread the grief further down the street.

If I got the 100 watt amp, I'd want to get it up and running before considering changing the circuit. --You may like the sound as is, try linking a few of the channels togeather also.

As far as doing work on the amp yourself, I would suggest that you avoid this, as tube amps contain high voltages that can possibly hurt you badly, or even kill you if you don't know what you're doing. A lot of the work is straightforwards enough for a competent tech, that you may be able to find through a music store. My problem with a lot of techs, is that a lot of them are NOT competent, and may do unwanted things to your amp without asking you. --Definately ask around, as good, reputable techs are a precious commodity. If they worked on tube electronics in the Military, chances are high that they are pretty good.

You may want to look at some of these to learn some more.

If you live in or near London, you may be in luck, as John Kelley from Kelly amps, and formerly Selmer Amps is said to still be in business repair amps.

the amp wattage thing is a bitch. the ideal setup for practice seems to be a 50W or 100W amp, while the ideal for playing a show is 30W or 50W. the amp power is something that's really tricky to get just right, so you're hitting the amp as hard as it needs to be hit to sound its best, and that volume isn't too loud or too quiet. the cabinet is a huge part of that equation, too, whether you're playing one speaker or two or four, whether they're low efficiency or high efficiency...

the thing i'd recommend, if it's a possibility, is to go for 50W max with this amp. if it's not enough, if you're too quiet, you can use a 4x12 instead of a 2x12, or you can do what I think is the bestest, add a second low-powered amp, maybe 30W or less, or 50W tops, with one providing dirt and another providing definition.

as far as using a PA for a guitar amp, I did that for the bulk of the last couple years, but I modified it by replacing the entire preamp section with what's more or less a copy of the JCM800 preamp. stock, a good PA will be designed to provide as little distortion as it possibly can. for guitar, that can be undesirable. you can get some grit by cranking it all the way up, most likely. but at that point, a fully-cranked 100W amp is maybe bad news. so again, 50W is probably better.

D'Piucchstre wrote:If you're in the UK, I'd also consider an old Selmer of some sort, like a T&B 50. Also, from what I understand, a lot of old Tube PA amps sell for cheap there, and utilise many of the same components that guitar amps from the corresponding brands use. --You may have to tweak the circuit, however, as some brands used differant circuits than their guitar amps.

yes, there are a lot of cheap tube PAs over here. if you have time to do a bit of reading they make great projects. thing is, they're all el34s this side of the ocean. cheap 6l6 amps are hard to come by. so unless you want to do some serious (or at least slightly more complicated than re-wiring the preamp) modification, you'll have to go the el34 route.

modifying an EL34 amp to run 6L6's is generally a non-mod, in that you don't have to do anything. the bias needs to be changed to accommodate the tubes, but that's about it. unless the output tubes are wired so the suppressor (pin 1) is connected to something other than ground, it's pretty much just plug and play. much easier than modifying the preamp, though modifying the preamp can be easy enough depending on what you do.
an easy and useful preamp mod would be to change out the cathode resistor and bypass cap (or add a bypass cap if there isn't one already) which can get you more gain. and then adding a master volume if there isn't one already, that's also easy and can aid in generating more distorted sounds.

the funniest thing about the Traynor YVM-1 (50W tube PA) is that it's got a master volume knob that is totally useless in a guitar amp context... it's a volume knob that affects all the channel's volumes, but there are no gain stages, no *nothing* between the channel volumes and the master volume. so if you're using a single channel for guitar, it's the equivalent of having two volume knobs instead of one... not a preamp volume and master volume, but just two volume knobs one after the other. too funny.

there's a Laney tube PA on eBay right now that I would love to use as a platform for modding. it's in the US even. already too many projects and not enough time though.