steve wrote:Death is by definition unknown to anyone still alive. I am perfectly happy with that, and I suspect that the important part of my existence is the part I control while I am alive. Actually, I suspect there is nothing more, but as I've said, I don't know. I'd say it's about a million to one against there being anything else, but I don't "know."

With that on my mind, I take every minute here on earth as an important one. I don't have thoughts of eternity to comfort me, and I believe they would be illusory if I did. I must get on with it, do things and be good while I can.

Those who would live their lives in preparation for eternity are creating a bizarre double-standard: The earthly existence isn't important enough to enjoy for its own sake (these are worldly things), yet one's behavior here -- even a mistake -- is enough to damn one to Hell for all eternity.

This is a sick theology.

steve, not everybody is as well-adjusted and legitimately benevolent as you. you say "I must get on with it, do things and be good while I can." this is beautiful. you seem to be maybe not extraordinary, but actually maybe extraordinary, but at the very least, you're a grade-fucking-A stand up guy. if everybody steered their own actions the way you do, the world would be way the hell better. i'm being completely serious here.

BUT. the thing you say that leaves me a little uneasy is the idea that people should view life as important enough to enjoy for it's own sake... this is fine, but scary without getting into grander repercussions beyond one's own enjoyment of one's own life. i think enjoying life is important. but lives that are focused solely on this pursuit, that's a recipe for some things that we all seem to agree suck... power struggles, exploitation, oppression, these kinda things all stem from people pursuing their own happiness without regard to anything beyond that.

i just wanted to state that, my opinion. because lotsa folks don't have the same sense of right and wrong that you do, it's actually the life focused on pursuit of one's own happiness that probably leads to so many problems in human civilization, and something as simple as sincere concern for other people would eliminate lots of them.

not that this means anything much, but a life focused entirely on one's own personal pleasure is the core tenant of Satanism as described in LaVey's Satanic Bible, as i remember it anyways. without the sincere concern about other people, you've basically got the characters on Seinfeld.

the focus on damnation and Hell is something about many Christians that i just don't understand. the bible also doesn't say that one mistake leads to eternal damnation, as you've suggested it does. a mistake-free life is basically impossible, because humans are, by our very nature, shitheads. that's pretty much a direct quote. "shitheads" i think was the exact word used in the bible. the only mistake that would sentence you to eternal damnation, as i understand it, is turning your back on Jesus.

i wanna know, if the Christian church is a power structure put into place by men to control men, which is a natural logical extension of "as long as you don't turn your back on Jesus you're okay", how did this come about? was there an actual guy named Jesus who came up with the plan? knowing that he would amass followers who would be persecuted for wrongly believing he was anything more than a man, until it eventually reached a point where the roman empire coopted it? was it Jesus' plan for that to happen? or is it all stories, the Jesus guy didn't even exist? i can see the angle where the modern church is used by man to dominate man. but i don't understand how it would have come about in the first place. did Jesus just trick people into thinking he was noteworthy, for fun, and then random happenstance took it and ran?

Didn't you want this whole fiasco to end?

i wanted it off the thread about institutionalized racism.

i also hope the tone stays adult and thoughtful, with people genuinely working to understand where each other are coming from, rather than being all "you're a stupid-head!"

so far so good...

Did anybody catch that Emmett Till documentary on PBS awhile ago?

toomanyhelicopters wrote:BUT. the thing you say that leaves me a little uneasy is the idea that people should view life as important enough to enjoy for it's own sake... this is fine, but scary without getting into grander repercussions beyond one's own enjoyment of one's own life. i think enjoying life is important. but lives that are focused solely on this pursuit, that's a recipe for some things that we all seem to agree suck... power struggles, exploitation, oppression, these kinda things all stem from people pursuing their own happiness without regard to anything beyond that.

i just wanted to state that, my opinion. because lotsa folks don't have the same sense of right and wrong that you do, it's actually the life focused on pursuit of one's own happiness that probably leads to so many problems in human civilization, and something as simple as sincere concern for other people would eliminate lots of them.

Acting on my concern for other people gives me great satisfaction. I enjoy it. I am even benevolent (when I am) as a selfish act, because it makes me feel good. I know this is considered sinful in both Catholic and evangelical dogma, but fuck them. The end result is that I am better toward other people because it makes me feel good to be.

the focus on damnation and Hell is something about many Christians that i just don't understand. the bible also doesn't say that one mistake leads to eternal damnation, as you've suggested it does. a mistake-free life is basically impossible, because humans are, by our very nature, shitheads. that's pretty much a direct quote. "shitheads" i think was the exact word used in the bible. the only mistake that would sentence you to eternal damnation, as i understand it, is turning your back on Jesus.

Damnation is an uncomfortable topic, like most Biblical conundrums, because it has a ludicrous premise: Even if your time on earth is short, during that time you must accept Jesus, out of all competing Gods, or you will be tortured in Hell for eternity, and whatever good you do on earth is meaningless in the judgement.

If denying Jesus is a mistake, then it creates a paradox:

Two people can live the same life, be generous and kind to the rest of the world, and behave honorably in all ways. One was taught by his parents (whom the Bible tells us we must obey) that Jesus is Christ the Lord, the other is taught that he is a minor prophet of Islam. They are both aware of the other's beliefs, but both believe they serve God in the proper way. The Christian God would send one of them (the Muslim) to Hell (to be tortured for eternity) on a technicality.

The child raised a Muslim has no reason to suspect that every person of authority he knows is wrong, and so is sent to Hell because he doesn't have a radio that can pick up AM from Alabama, which might convince him otherwise.

Does anyone really believe this shit?

steve wrote:
Does anyone really believe this shit?

yes. i believe there are people who genuinely believe this. marvel at the power of the irrational.

steve wrote:If denying Jesus is a mistake, then it creates a paradox:

Two people can live the same life, be generous and kind to the rest of the world, and behave honorably in all ways. One was taught by his parents (whom the Bible tells us we must obey) that Jesus is Christ the Lord, the other is taught that he is a minor prophet of Islam. They are both aware of the other's beliefs, but both believe they serve God in the proper way. The Christian God would send one of them (the Muslim) to Hell (to be tortured for eternity) on a technicality.

The child raised a Muslim has no reason to suspect that every person of authority he knows is wrong, and so is sent to Hell because he doesn't have a radio that can pick up AM from Alabama, which might convince him otherwise.

Does anyone really believe this shit?

i can't speak for anyone else, though i suspect that millions of people would answer "yes, i do", but for me, no, i don't buy that.

i'm fully aware that i pick and choose what elements of the bible i believe, through my own thoughtful interpretation of what i believe to be sensible meanings. i'm also not about cramming my own or my church's interpretation of the bible down anybody's throat as immutable law.

and that's the only time it matters whether you believe the Muslim kid is fucked... when you start climbing a pulpit and *telling* folks that he's fucked. if you're concerned for his well-being because of your beliefs, but you keep it to yourself and maybe only hint at it with actions that show compassion, i don't think it's so bad. the vocal condemnation of heretics is where stuff gets crummy. and yeah, people will quote the bible with a reference that says Christians are required to evangelize and spread the word and all that... i don't deny that i interpret the bible my own way.

Intern_8033 wrote:There is only one unavoidable difference between these two people: The atheist/agnostic is aware of Christianity and considered it with the mind that God gave him, but for whatever reason comes to the conclusion that is false. It follows that the faculties lacking to properly make this decision are fundamental attributes of the heaven-bound. I don't know what you would call that lacking -- substandard critical thinking skills? Inability to accept information without overwhelming evidence? Whatever you call it, it has nothing to do with being a good person. With a God so petty, I don't want to go to heaven anyway.

i would call this illogical, what you're saying here. you've completely ignored the existence of free will. free will is a key ingredient. otherwise your argument would be sound... how could God fault a man for lacking the ability to make the choice that God requires he make, when it is only God who could have granted the man this ability. is that what you were suggesting? that ignores free will, and paints a picture where people are comparable to computer programs, executing a preset code with no human characteristics like growth and accountability for how one exercises one's own free will.

steve's example was much better.

Intern_8033 wrote:I didn't read that other thread so sorry if this has been covered. But not too sorry because I'm sure I covered it better anyway. I only apologized in the first place so I could point out that I didn't read your stupid thread.

so you're saying you avoided the abomination thread, but are now here participating in a thougtful discussion about Christianity? um, mission accomplished?

Intern_8033 wrote:toomanyhelicopters, I long ago stopped trying to clarify myself for your sake, but if some other people don't understand what I was saying, let me know.

: )

ok, i will check with everybody and then get back to you, prn.

i vote CRAP