The main three political parties here (Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour) are all in favour. So is the largest corporate lobby group IBEC. The much smaller political (left and right-wing) parties are against, yet it's still running 50/50 in the polls.

The French foreign minister made a thinly veiled threat against the Irish voters a couple of days ago saying we will be the 'first to suffer' if we vote no.

I predict a no vote by a small margin. Information has been very thin on the ground and people are seemingly quite pissed off at this.

Heeby Jeeby wrote:The French foreign minister made a thinly veiled threat against the Irish voters a couple of days ago saying we will be the 'first to suffer' if we vote no.

As loathed as I might be to generate further debate on this, the feeling here is that Kouncher's (French foreign minister) comments were tactical and designed to provoke the "no vote". There is a bizarre French agenda at work.

If anyone seriously listens to the opinions of MEPs like Jens-Peter Bonde and Nick Farage, we are all fucked.

I agree the vote will probably go 'no'. It's just a shame about the paucity of the debate.

I don't know if it had that much impact really. Most people I've spoken to were aware of his comments but had a 'He can shove it up his hole' attitude.

Personally I've read the Referendum Commission's handbook and am still none the wiser on the exact ins and outs of the treaty.

It's full of gems like 'the way laws are made will be changed' without actually telling you the processes involved and HOW they will be changed.

When someone tries to get you to make an important decision but won't give you the information required to make and educated decision it's time to vote no.

It's just a shame about the paucity of the debate.

Frankly it's the no side of the debate that has completely failed in this regard, there has been endless bob-style scaremongering which has muddied an already messy issue. I think the information provided by the referendum commission was comprehensive, but that people won't read it and that the result will be more a reflection on the level of euro-scepticism in ireland than an honest appraisal of the content of the treaty.


edit, jim corr from the corr's has cleared it all up

i wonder what Andrea thinks

ivan wrote:

It's just a shame about the paucity of the debate.

Frankly it's the no side of the debate that has completely failed in this regard, there has been endless bob-style scaremongering which has muddied an already messy issue.

I think some on the No side are guilty of this but the Yes-pushers have been just as guilty. 'Proud to be Irish. Proud to be at the centre of Europe'. What the fuck does that mean?

ivan wrote: I think the information provided by the referendum commission was comprehensive, but that people won't read it and that the result will be more a reflection on the level of euro-scepticism in ireland than an honest appraisal of the content of the treaty.

Are you talking about the information sent through the doors by the Commission?? 'Cos I thought that was the most laughable piece of shit I'd read in a long while. I think they took 'impartial' to mean 'dumbed down to the point that all meaningful information is omitted'.

Personally I think a No vote, if it comes about, will be more an expression of skepticism about politics and politicians in general than about Europe.

Heeby Jeeby wrote:It's full of gems like 'the way laws are made will be changed' without actually telling you the processes involved and HOW they will be changed.

One of the problems is that the text of the treaty is not great (written by committee) and no one has summarized it adequately.

As an example, currently when foreign ministers meet they vote using a weighted proportionality which requires frequent re-balancing (QMV). Technology means this can be simplified and stablised (under Lisbon) to reflect population directly.

ivan wrote:more a reflection on the level of euro-scepticism in Ireland

I can understand people voting 'no' (heeby jeeby's reasoning sounds fair) but I hope the general consensus is not based on simple euro-scepticism.

More tax money will be wasted coming up with a revised or new treaty.

ivan wrote:edit, jim corr from the corr's has cleared it all up

i wonder what Andrea thinks

Holy fucking shit!! Bob/Rick = Jim Corr

aldofarian wrote

More tax money will be wasted coming up with a revised or new treaty.

or like nice, where they just gave us the same treaty again until they got the answer they wanted.

heeby said

Are you talking about the information sent through the doors by the Commission?? 'Cos I thought that was the most laughable piece of shit I'd read in a long while. I think they took 'impartial' to mean 'dumbed down to the point that all meaningful information is omitted'.

I read it on their website so maybe it's different, i'd agree that it lacks detail, but again i don't think most people will even read what little information is given. Most people couldn't tell you what qualified majority voting is, let alone how it works in the EU or how the treaty will change it. I agree that instead of trying to explain matters there has been scaremongering on both sides - the economy on the yes side, and a pile of batshit crazy rubbish on the no side, with Sinn Fein out on their own saying that it's basically ok but we should have asked for more.

Personally I think a No vote, if it comes about, will be more an expression of skepticism about politics and politicians in general than about Europe.

I'd agree that this is a large part of the no vote

ivan wrote:aldofarian wrote

More tax money will be wasted coming up with a revised or new treaty.

or like nice, where they just gave us the same treaty again until they got the answer they wanted.

That was one of the last straws for me, with regards Irish politics. Unbelievable. Just keep asking and spending our money until we change our minds.

The weird thing about all these European referenda is that they bring the right-wing and left-wing parties together on the No side, and the centrists tend to push for acceptance.

I am very suspicious about the motivations of certain sectors pushing for votes on both sides. IBEC are pushing for a Yes and that loon Ganley from Libertas is campaigning for a No.

ricky-bobby wrote

the establishment is really mad and frustrated by the media time that is going to the anti-globalists

anti-globalists my ass, they're a pack of nimby's, religious nut-jobs and political opportunists. Coir could care less about europe, they are a front for the anti-abortion group Youth Defence, using the treaty to whip up some controversy.

It's impressive to see how every situation can be filtered through ricky-bobby vision (tm) and emerge as a fight between a cabal of new-order-jewish-banker-alien-lizards and the plucky little man.