Ty Webb wrote:

bigc wrote:

Ty Webb wrote:I suppose it doesn't HAVE to. But it's the rare faith that doesn't, so I don't think I'd call the lens all that narrow.

In what do you have faith then? What else requires faith of the spiritual sort?

I have faith that there is an energy in the world that is beyond what I can perceive with my five senses. I do not believe that this energy is conscious.

In human experience, THAT is faith viewed through a very narrow lens. You are in a tiny, tiny minority of the faithful.

In the most limited view, everything requires faith...faith in your senses, etc.

That borders on a reductio ad absurdum argument. If we are to take our very existence on faith by your lights, then this whole conversation is pointless (and possibly imaginary?).

I liked Wood Goblin's illustration as well (especially since I'm a big Dylan Thomas fan), though I think it reflects our momentary contact with the ineffable, not the spiritual. Maybe that's semantics, but to me, it's more a brief glimpse of the place where our brains can perceive but not depict. Is that "the spirit"? Maybe. Or maybe it's just the ragged, blurred edge of cognition. Maybe there's no difference.

Yes, I am in a minority of the faithful...trust me... I know. But my point is the former sentence there, not the latter. I think that faith is essentially a matter of belief in something beyond our immediate senses. After that, the perception is personal and in many cases defies description.

Sure, it's a full on reductio ad absurdum, no doubt. And in a sense, this conversation is pointless top the extent that we're doing anything but bandying about opinion in an effort to know each other better.

As for your last paragraph, your thoughts on the matter mirror mine.

I think that “being spiritual” is just one of many, many A-OK ways of aching for freedom.

I don’t think it fucking matters at all how you decorate the walls of your prison… with vipassana meditation or solar-powered sustainable cheese-making or Marxist mouth-foaming or verbally abusing people on the internet. Negotiate your little furloughs however you can, just be courteous and try not to piss on others’ efforts to enjoy themselves.

What gets labeled Buddhist-y spiritually is great if it helps to lessen your disappointment over unfulfilled desire. Rock over, spiritually-inclined.

Rick Reuben wrote:

tocharian wrote:I think that “being spiritual” is just one of many, many A-OK ways of aching for freedom.

It's not a very effective way of protecting or restoring your freedom, though. It's a road to denial. In almost every case, people lose freedom through some injustice or inequity caused by capitalism. If you ignore capitalism and 'decorate the walls of your prison' with some mystical 'I'm happy because I tell myself I'm happy' bullshit, you're masking the removal of your freedom, not asking for your freedom.

tocharian wrote:Negotiate your little furloughs however you can...

Like I said: escapism.

I really think you're making some pretty huge assumptions about people when you say that having faith is a road to denial.

Rick Reuben wrote:If you ignore capitalism and 'decorate the walls of your prison' with some mystical 'I'm happy because I tell myself I'm happy' bullshit, you're masking the removal of your freedom, not asking for your freedom.

Rick, do you really believe in freedom? Because if so, take heed:

That I need to watch out, because someone or thing is possibly going to try and screw me over.

A paint-brushed dolphin hovering above the ocean in front of a rising moon.

Rick Reuben wrote:

bigc wrote:

Dude, I've been reading back your contributions to this thread. They're boring and disorganized. Talk to tocharian. I have no interest in what your muddled brain thinks about my opinion of faith. Also- try not quoting entire previous posts to add a single line. It's dumb.

Yawn. Huge gaping yawn. It was a perfectly legitimate comment based on your usual rambling generalizations.

I think the word spirituality much like the word god has been unreasonably distorted by religious fundamentalists and hip shooting atheists that sound off the same bull crap that 'every single war was fought because... etc. etc.'

In a lot of Christian discussions 'spiritual' elements to certain texts are noted as being one exotic feature in the text. It is as if spirituality was some minor component in religion. This may be true in their practice but it reveals popular religion to be impoverished; it seems to often lack spirit all together.

I think everyone, agnostics included, walk around with at least a faint hint of something I would call spirituality. By no means suggesting that they have an automatic faith in doctrine, I mean that they have an instinct of what is just, a sense of themselves on a micro scale swimming in a much bigger macro universe and some kind of order that is just as easily thought of as animal behavior, astrophysics, aesthetics, or natural law.

I guess what I'm saying is the word spirituality plugs in to a kind of Jungian schema to me, which makes it an inherent part of human psychology. Due to the wealth of human diversity it takes on innumerable faces, but it always comes from the same place.

"Spiritual" is synonym for "I need to think about these things a bit more". It also tends to conjure images of Hallmark angels and middle-aged women's daydreams in most people.

And by the way, Matt's no longer a Roman Catholic or even a Christian anymore for the record.........had a protracted revelation about all the religion stuff awhile back...long story. Will credit certain discussions I've had on this board for contributing to said revelation.

matthew wrote:
And by the way, Matt's no longer a Roman Catholic or even a Christian anymore for the record.........had a protracted revelation about all the religion stuff awhile back...long story. Will credit certain discussions I've had on this board for contributing to said revelation.

Congratulations.