Maybe the person didn't really die at all. Maybe his vital signs outwardly indicated he was dead--or almost dead--to the doctors in the E.R., when in fact certain areas of his brain were still active.

Maybe he experienced that stuff during a period of unconsciousness before his bodily processes failed, and then when his bodily processes stabilized again, his subjective experience of the event was that he was "going to Heaven".

There are a lot of possible reasonable explanations that don't assume the existence of an afterlife, evidence of which exists nowhere outside religious teachings and these sort of anecdotes. These stories do not prove anything more than some people claim to have experienced weird sensations when they lost consciousness during a medical operation.

I dropped acid once and about 3 hours later I felt certain I was experiencing communion with God. Does this mean that I was dying and going to Heaven? Does this prove that acid is a Holy Sacrament? Does this prove that God even exists? Does this prove anything other than the fact that my brain was being fucked up at the time as a result of my having ingested an hallucinogenic drug?

Rick Reuben wrote:'touched' what we call death

What exactly does this mean? To "'touch' what we call death"?

I repeat:

Colonel Panic wrote:Maybe the person didn't really die at all. Maybe his vital signs outwardly indicated he was dead--or almost dead--to the doctors in the E.R., when in fact certain areas of his brain were still active.

Maybe he experienced that stuff during a period of unconsciousness before his bodily processes failed, and then when his bodily processes stabilized again, his subjective experience of the event was that he was "going to Heaven".

There are a lot of possible reasonable explanations that don't assume the existence of an afterlife, evidence of which exists nowhere outside religious teachings and these sort of anecdotes. These stories do not prove anything more than some people claim to have experienced weird sensations when they lost consciousness during a medical operation.

I dropped acid once and about 3 hours later I felt certain I was experiencing communion with God. Does this mean that I was dying and going to Heaven? Does this prove that acid is a Holy Sacrament? Does this prove that God even exists? Does this prove anything other than the fact that my brain was being fucked up at the time as a result of my having ingested an hallucinogenic drug?

I'm not prejudiced against spiritual beliefs per se, I just find it hard to accept things for which there is no proof, just because it sounds like a good story.

Back to the cops. About five years ago I was hanging at my parents'. It was about 9pm and the cops came banging at the door.
They said somebody reported a domestic disturbance at that address. One of them did not wait for me to open the door and he was already trying to come inside. I held the door against him and told him they couldn't come in without a warrant.

Right at that point, another officer comes running and says they had the wrong address. However, cop #1 still insisted. He looked eager about busting my head open. He said we people shouldn't get so smart and we should know our place and a couple of more racial slurs. I told him to go do his job 'cause he worked for me. Saw him a couple of times after that, never said shit to me again.

Rick Reuben wrote:

Johnny 13 wrote:

jcamenie wrote:If anybody is going to push the opposite, they have to prove it. So far nobody has.

You've proved nothing either. You have an anecdote, which may or may not have any information about true death.

I've never pushed that onto anybody. I told you what happened to me which also happens to be a big reason for me not believe in any form of after life.

Rick Reuben wrote: I would like to know if Johnny 13 and Colonel Panic also support ending religion by killing religious people. If they don't, then how do they plan to do it? Through atheistic education? If they choose that method, then they have to also end free speech, so the religious people can't counter their atheistic education with pro-religious teachings.

I don't expect to end anything, and I don't advocate any offensive means of accomplishing that end. I expect if it does come, it will be by attrition.

I do believe in meeting intrusive religion with some sort of reasonable response, and that issues such as abortion where the opposition is almost entirely religious in nature not receive any compromise. My antitheistic musings are similar to my antiautomobile notions. I may think the world would be better off without either thing, but I don't want to eliminate anything by desire or action for various reasons. The fact that I believe people have the right to take part in things I disagree with not being the least of those.

Rick Reuben wrote:

Johnny 13 wrote: I believe people have the right to take part in things I disagree with not being the least of those.

Well, if they have a right, then doesn't a right trump your antitheistic musings? Aren't you setting yourself up for a losing battle, by defining religion as a right? I mean, if you're counting on attrition, then you're not really fighting the religious people, you're just standing by watching them.

That's why I advocate choosing enemies....

Rick, I don't think John, in any way, is necessarily setting up people he does not agree with as being enemies, and in fact thinks they have every right to believe as they believe. It's when anyone tries to impose their beliefs on those around them, essentially telling other people they don't have a right to their beliefs, that conflict may arise. Thought does not necessarily create enemies; it's the acts and actions that follow thought that create enemies.

IMO, the ideal life would be one lived without enemies of any kind. I feel that enmity against other human beings is one of the greatest intellectual and emotional burdens a person can possibly have. I'd rather remain free of such burdens as long as it's in my power to do so.

At this point in my life I can happily say that there's not a single human being whom I'd consider to be an "enemy". No matter how much I might disagree with an individual--even on the most important issues--I have almost found that there is some point at which we are able to see eye-to-eye.

The concept of "enemy" is in most cases a dogmatic one, and therefore I feel it has little bearing on my own personal relationships with others. People ought to be free to believe whatever they want to believe as long as their beliefs and actions do not infringe upon the freedoms of others. Though I personally find religions to be distasteful, I hold no ill will towards others who choose to practice an established religion, just as I have no personal ill will towards somebody who chooses to believe in bigfoot or UFOs or Scientology or anything else like that, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on others. Though we may have ideological differences and we may debate over those differences, that doesn't mean that I harbor any personal ill will towards them.

Classifying everyone who disagrees with your beliefs as a sworn enemy is an unfortunate result of dogmatic, absolutist modes of thinking.

Rick Reuben wrote:

Colonel Panic wrote:At this point in my life I can happily say that there's not a single human being whom I'd consider to be an "enemy".

That's fucking retarded. You can't classify George Bush as an enemy of good Americans?? His army killed a million Iraqis in our name because he said they had bombs and were coming to kill us. You let some nut put that devilish stain on all of us and he doesn't fit the definition of enemy?

I don't consider him to be a personal enemy of mine. I consider him perhaps to be a misguided person who has subscribed to a destructive ideology, who has been used as a tool by some very greedy and manipulative political/religious extremists and as a result, has committed heinous crimes for which he needs to be brought to justice. But I don't consider him to be a personal enemy, really.

If I saw him on the street, for instance, I would not consider it my personal duty to attack or kill him or something like that. That's my definition of an enemy. I don't have enemies. If I lived in a lawless, disordered society where there were people at large in my community, actively trying to kill me or do me great personal harm (like in a war zone or something), then I would say that yes, I have enemies. But at this point am fortunate to not be in that kind of situation.

Maybe take the word 'nutjob' out of your lexicon, Bob...

ubercat wrote:Maybe take the word 'nutjob' out of your lexicon, Bob...

how would he define himself then?