Got it. I think I may have been falling into the trap of soloing the drums and hearing the echo effect and being like "well that doesn't sound right" rather than listening in the context of the mix.

cobascis wrote:Thanks for this vid, it's really well put together and a great quick resource to check out. The snare mic is 3" above, lined up with the edge of the drum hoop, correct? Is it pointing at the center of the head? I often struggle with snare mic placement (or just set it once and forget it), so I'm interested if you think this is a good starting point. I've experimented with delaying the room mics, often when I get more than 10 or 15ms delay, the 'flam' effect you mention seems to happen. Is the trick getting the amount of time just under this level? It doesn't sound good when it sounds like there is a delay pedal on the snare drum, but just under that seems to be the sweet spot? Or maybe I'm mixing the room mics too loud? Any tips appreciated.The snare mic position is hard to see due to the camera angle but yeah, around 3" up, in over the hoop about 1" and pointing at the centre of the head, there's a lot of considerations that determine the start point but that's where it ended up for this. The reasons I generally move it are to balance the hi-hat rejection and to compensate for how hard the drum is being hit, or not.The 'flamming' is more apparent on fast transients like ride cymbal especially when the room mics are higher in the mix. If the mix is busy it's not really noticeable and the extra sense of depth you get is really effective, I'm happy to let if be if it doesn't interfere with the song, but if it's causing trouble I'll drop the room mics into the mix a bit. Quite how many milliseconds the room mics should be delayed will be determined by how far away from the kit they are, in line with the Haas/precedence effect.

From what I've read, the delaying FM Steve does on the room mics is primarily done to simulate the time taken for the reflections of the sound from the walls to get back to the drummers 'ears' so as to be ultra realistic from the drummers perspective. So, distance/room mics are picking up a snare hit 10ms after the actual hit would mean +10ms as a delay (which obviously equates to a real-world 20ms with the tracks lined-up) to make it sound like you're sat on the stool.If you're in a massive hall or room with, for example, something crazy like 30ms until the soundwaves hit the walls to bounce back, you'd theoretically be running a total of 60ms! Probably wouldn't sound great but that'd be a case of being in a room too big to sound good...and would be 'flamming' all over - BUT it would be an accurate representation of the room. I think the key is to just have the right amount blended in (no matter how crazy long the delay) so that is sounds like what it actually is...reverb - not an audible delay 'effect'.On a side note, the recording sounds great, good job.

Delaying the room mics takes them out of the area of the Haas effect, so they're perceived as unique sounds.viewtopic.php?t=159

max wrote:JohnnySomersett wrote:From what I've read, the delaying FM Steve does on the room mics is primarily done to simulate the time taken for the reflections of the sound from the walls to get back to the drummers 'ears' so as to be ultra realistic from the drummers perspective. So, distance/room mics are picking up a snare hit 10ms after the actual hit would mean +10ms as a delay (which obviously equates to a real-world 20ms with the tracks lined-up) to make it sound like you're sat on the stool.If you're in a massive hall or room with, for example, something crazy like 30ms until the soundwaves hit the walls to bounce back, you'd theoretically be running a total of 60ms! Probably wouldn't sound great but that'd be a case of being in a room too big to sound good...and would be 'flamming' all over - BUT it would be an accurate representation of the room. I think the key is to just have the right amount blended in (no matter how crazy long the delay) so that is sounds like what it actually is...reverb - not an audible delay 'effect'.On a side note, the recording sounds great, good job.Au contraire, mon ami.Delaying the room mics has the effect the room sounds larger than it actually is. Sound travels at about 340m/s. That means that delaying the room mics for another 15ms equals the distance of about 5 metres. According to your thinking you would have to delay all the close mics to time align them with the room mics.No you wouldn't have to. Say the room mics are 5 metres from the snare, then by delaying those mics 15ms (for your maths of 5 metres) you would replicate the reflections travelling out then back again to the drummers ears...total in & out time of 30ms. You can make the delay longer than that and make the room sound bigger but by delaying by the same amount as the real-world soundwave-to-mic delay then you actually just replicate the room properly. it all depends if you want the recording to sound like you're stood in front of the drummer or sat in the stool. It also depends if your room mics are pointed at the drums or at the walls.just my 2p

JohnnySomersett wrote:From what I've read, the delaying FM Steve does on the room mics is primarily done to simulate the time taken for the reflections of the sound from the walls to get back to the drummers 'ears' so as to be ultra realistic from the drummers perspective. So, distance/room mics are picking up a snare hit 10ms after the actual hit would mean +10ms as a delay (which obviously equates to a real-world 20ms with the tracks lined-up) to make it sound like you're sat on the stool.If you're in a massive hall or room with, for example, something crazy like 30ms until the soundwaves hit the walls to bounce back, you'd theoretically be running a total of 60ms! Probably wouldn't sound great but that'd be a case of being in a room too big to sound good...and would be 'flamming' all over - BUT it would be an accurate representation of the room. I think the key is to just have the right amount blended in (no matter how crazy long the delay) so that is sounds like what it actually is...reverb - not an audible delay 'effect'.On a side note, the recording sounds great, good job.Au contraire, mon ami.Delaying the room mics has the effect the room sounds larger than it actually is. Sound travels at about 340m/s. That means that delaying the room mics for another 15ms equals the distance of about 5 metres. According to your thinking you would have to delay all the close mics to time align them with the room mics.

Adam P wrote:Delaying the room mics takes them out of the area of the Haas effect, so they're perceived as unique sounds.viewtopic.php?t=159I think you may have misread what was intended in his example, he quotes exact math, but the point he's making is that he does it largely to reduce comb filtering. If the kick is tuned at 40Hz, then the period is 25mS, so once the signal from the room mic is delayed by roughly that amount you can reduce the interference while also avoiding going into the Haas area of hearing it discretely.I dunno, I could be wrong, but I've never heard an example where I could hear distinct flams in the echo. I delay mine out just in from where they flam usually, and call it a day, but I use room mics pretty prominently and the bleed from the full band is often in them.

Stinky Pete wrote:Adam P wrote:Delaying the room mics takes them out of the area of the Haas effect, so they're perceived as unique sounds.viewtopic.php?t=159I think you may have misread what was intended in his example, he quotes exact math, but the point he's making is that he does it largely to reduce comb filtering. If the kick is tuned at 40Hz, then the period is 25mS, so once the signal from the room mic is delayed by roughly that amount you can reduce the interference while also avoiding going into the Haas area of hearing it discretely.I dunno, I could be wrong, but I've never heard an example where I could hear distinct flams in the echo. I delay mine out just in from where they flam usually, and call it a day, but I use room mics pretty prominently and the bleed from the full band is often in them.I don't often delay mine, but I keep my room mics pretty low in the mix for the most part unless the song calls for a particularly open sound. I too dislike being able to hear anything 'flamming' so would also dial mine back from that position. But I'm not massively experienced so it's all with a pinch of salt.

It depends what you're doing, of course, and it depends what an "Overhead" is versus what a "Room" sound is. I tend to run them as hot as I can without muddying the mix too much, otherwise it feels a bit anemic to me. Another guy would mic the kit different and use no room mics and get a result that might sound 'full' but might aesthetically very different.I've never done a record that called for 100% dry drums. For a funk or pop outfit it might be ideal, but I work with rock bands.

Stinky Pete wrote:It depends what you're doing, of course, and it depends what an "Overhead" is versus what a "Room" sound is. I tend to run them as hot as I can without muddying the mix too much, otherwise it feels a bit anemic to me. Another guy would mic the kit different and use no room mics and get a result that might sound 'full' but might aesthetically very different.I've never done a record that called for 100% dry drums. For a funk or pop outfit it might be ideal, but I work with rock bands.I've never had the chance to record in a dry enough room to get 100% dry drums!