I couldn't stand The Smiths initially, probably because most of their fans seemed to really enjoy wallowing in Morrissey's misery and took his every word as gospel. Then one day I heard a Smiths song (can't recall which one) and Morrissey's lyrics and vocal were so withering and articulate and obviously tongue in cheek that it made me smirk.

I started smirking my way through the Smiths' discography and found myself drawn in by Johnny Marr's ear for melody and hooks. I read an interview where he said he wanted The Smiths' music to sound like Dusty Springfield or similar 1960s British pop and another piece fell into place.

I also realized something important: Morrissey's whole "I'm so depressed/Am I a boy or girl" persona was part serious, mostly shuck. He was identifying with a subculture while openly mocking them/himself and having a good laugh.

Sixteen clumsy and shy
I went to London and died
I booked myself in at the Y.
W.C.A.
I said I like it here can I stay
I like it here can I stay
And do you have a vacancy
For a back scrubber

The image of a miserable teenage gender-confused Morrissey scrubbing a naked woman's back with soap and a brush (is he crying? Is he naked too?) is so preposterous and absurd it can't possibly be meant to be taken at face value.

Another example: There Is A Light That Never Goes Out is both a great love song and a brilliant parody of a love song. It can be interpreted either way.

And if a ten ton truck
Kills the both of us
To die by your side
Well, the pleasure and the privilege is mine

Those lyrics are heartbreakingly honest and beautiful and at the same time over the top and hilarious. Precious few songwriters possess this rare gift.

Of course I'm talking about The Smiths, not Morrissey's solo career without Johnny Marr crafting the music. He reminds me of Bryan Ferry, whose early schtick was a knowing caricature of the jaded playboy rock star, delivered with a wink. As time went on the artifice was dropped and he became that despicable character for real (also see: Rod Stewart).

tonyballz wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:02 amI also realized something important: Morrissey's whole "I'm so depressed/Am I a boy or girl" persona was part serious, mostly shuck. He was identifying with a subculture while openly mocking them/himself and having a good laugh.

If that's true I guess he "did it first" or whatever but I think that makes him suck. Esp since apparently a large part of his fans identify with it and like the music because of it and what, he is snickering at them in secret like "hah, you believe in this? man you're a bunch of losers"?

tonyballz wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:02 am (stuff about The Smiths)

Well said FM tonyballz. That pretty much sums up my view of The Smiths.

kokorodoko wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:37 am

tonyballz wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:02 amI also realized something important: Morrissey's whole "I'm so depressed/Am I a boy or girl" persona was part serious, mostly shuck. He was identifying with a subculture while openly mocking them/himself and having a good laugh.

If that's true I guess he "did it first" or whatever but I think that makes him suck. Esp since apparently a large part of his fans identify with it and like the music because of it and what, he is snickering at them in secret like "hah, you believe in this? man you're a bunch of losers"?

I don't think so. An artist has no control over how his art is interpreted by the audience once it's released. Ian MacKaye has stated that Straight Edge was a song about himself, he never intended those lyrics to become a manifesto for a movement. If Morrissey's fans identify with his music that means they get the joke too. They should, anyway. There is obviously a difference between "Morrissey," the person who lives within those songs, and Steven Morrissey the pop songwriter. I would hope there's no adults out there who think they're one and the same.

Again, all this is referring to Morrissey in The Smiths, not Morrissey the humorless preening solo artist, who really does suck and has zero ability to laugh at himself.

tonyballz wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:25 amIf Morrissey's fans identify with his music that means they get the joke too.

tonyballz wrote:most of their fans seemed to really enjoy wallowing in Morrissey's misery and took his every word as gospel

?

tonyballz wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:25 am I don't think so. An artist has no control over how his art is interpreted by the audience once it's released. Ian MacKaye has stated that Straight Edge was a song about himself, he never intended those lyrics to become a manifesto for a movement.

One reason I continue to like Minor Threat after finding straight edge to be a tedious concept to base an artistic movement on.

Speaking of him, I remember 'getting' the idea behind 'Guilty of Being White' as a 15 year old and it really clicking with me as someone who was just becoming aware of our country's legacy of racism, and it's various burdens on everyone. These days after ages of discussion on race in America, anti-racist action etc. I find it to be a little problematic (not like I'm trying to cancel that shit). I can imagine the shmucks from the right wing who are wringing their hands over the growing popularity of confronting white privelege/fragility etc would really celebrate its thesis.

I'd be very curious to hear MacKaye's thoughts on this. Not like one of those entertainment articles where he has to get his PR team to cleanup a scandal, but like, just what does a smart principled dude think about something he screamed about as a teenager, and probably has more nuance these days. Also if the question would piss him off, I'd like someone else to ask him. I always feel like I'm in trouble when Ian gets mad.

losthighway wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:42 am Speaking of him, I remember 'getting' the idea behind 'Guilty of Being White' as a 15 year old and it really clicking with me as someone who was just becoming aware of our country's legacy of racism, and it's various burdens on everyone. These days after ages of discussion on race in America, anti-racist action etc. I find it to be a little problematic (not like I'm trying to cancel that shit). I can imagine the shmucks from the right wing who are wringing their hands over the growing popularity of confronting white privelege/fragility etc would really celebrate its thesis.

That ship sailed when (if not before) Slayer appropriated it as 'Guilty of Being Right'.

I feel the same way about that song. I can still appreciate the original intent, but with the recognition that he was talking about his lived experience of racism on an interpersonal, affective level, and that to stop one's analysis there would be the equivalent of neoliberal Robin DiAngelo bullshit. "Ahistorical, you think this shit just fell right out of the sky." The young Ian was definitely not about stopping his analysis there, but that song in isolation (much like 'Straight Edge') is a personal story that invites misguided and/or bad-faith overgeneralization.

IIRC middle-aged Ian has expressed misgivings and a nuanced view about that song, but I don't have a citation at my fingertips.

kokorodoko wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:34 am

tonyballz wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:25 amIf Morrissey's fans identify with his music that means they get the joke too.

tonyballz wrote:most of their fans seemed to really enjoy wallowing in Morrissey's misery and took his every word as gospel

?

The "wallowing" line was how I perceived Smiths fans to be before I knew anything about the band. The other line is how I view them now. Sorry if there was any confusion.

What I should have said was: If Morrissey's fans identify with his music, I HOPE they get the joke. I'm probably wrong there.

Isadore Nabi wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:14 pm

losthighway wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:42 am Speaking of him, I remember 'getting' the idea behind 'Guilty of Being White' as a 15 year old and it really clicking with me as someone who was just becoming aware of our country's legacy of racism, and it's various burdens on everyone. These days after ages of discussion on race in America, anti-racist action etc. I find it to be a little problematic (not like I'm trying to cancel that shit). I can imagine the shmucks from the right wing who are wringing their hands over the growing popularity of confronting white privelege/fragility etc would really celebrate its thesis.

That ship sailed when (if not before) Slayer appropriated it as 'Guilty of Being Right'.

I feel the same way about that song. I can still appreciate the original intent, but with the recognition that he was talking about his lived experience of racism on an interpersonal, affective level, and that to stop one's analysis there would be the equivalent of neoliberal Robin DiAngelo bullshit. "Ahistorical, you think this shit just fell right out of the sky." The young Ian was definitely not about stopping his analysis there, but that song in isolation (much like 'Straight Edge') is a personal story that invites misguided and/or bad-faith overgeneralization.

IIRC middle-aged Ian has expressed misgivings and a nuanced view about that song, but I don't have a citation at my fingertips.

There's also the question of holding someone responsible to the letter for something they wrote as a teenager forty years ago in a completely different political and social landscape. There's no way Guilty Of Being White could be written today and not be perceived as racism. And nowadays once that hammer of judgement comes down, you're DONE, Jack. You are labeled a racist and that's the end of it. No amount of explaining "Oh, it's a personal song about my experience" is going to help your case.

Todd Rundgren.

I assumed for years that he was the worst kind of winky, jokey, "intellectual", over complicated Lawyer Rock one could find. That his fans were stuck in (a depressing) time, unwilling to move on, willing to die on a hill of mediocrity, in worship of a Joe Bonamassa type of musical savior. Like he was some kind of unfunny Weird Al.

I recently listened to Something/Anything, A Wizard, A True Star and the first Nazz album. I ate my words. I don't love every song, but there is some really effective songwriting going on there. Some truly lovely songs and a unique approach. The fact that he could write, play, produce and engineer the whole bit is pretty fantastic too.

Also, he did some undeniably great work with Badfinger, The Band, Patti Smith, Psychedelic Furs, XTC, etc.