American Gothic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:39 pm Dystopian? LOL
even lower class people in the USA have cars, smart phones, trendy name brand clothing and shoes, flatscreen tv's. playstations, Beats headphones, eat out, etc etc
do you not know any or live among them as I do and used to be poor as I have been on occasions in my Life?

This is conflating consumerism with success. I think if you look at income inequality, upward mobility (or lack thereof), infant mortality, and health care, having a cheap flatscreen might not be the end all, be all. The Human Development Index (based on health, educaiton and income) ranks the US as 17th. Certainly better than Russia, but not nearly as good as Norway.

American Gothic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:39 pm constitutionally limited and smaller government with less dependence and more personal freedom works
that's why Millions want to come here and not Cuba

I wonder if people in Spain and Italy, or Kenya argue to each other that their nation must be perfect because people immigrate there.

American Gothic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:39 pm do you not know any or live among them as I do

...They said to the Mexican who spent his life in factories and grew up in a house without any food...

constitutionally limited and smaller government with more personal freedom works
that's why Millions want to come here and not Cuba

The question isn't one of limits or no limits, it's where the best place to put those limits is at any given point in time. Obviously, none of us is advocating for totalitarianism and the insinuation that someone on the left is trying to turn WASPs into slaves every time a person in a position of power says "stop being a dick to marginalized people" is fallacious at best.

The problem is that if you don't limit the freedom of the powerful, then they use their power to limit the freedom of the not powerful. Limiting the powers of government (which is a proxy for the wealthy elites who have the financial capability to be elected to positions of power) protects the individual from having his freedom limited by wealthy elites, yes, but using government as a tool to ban slavery limits the freedom of people to own slaves so that nobody has to worry about their personal freedom limited by being made a slave. Establishing a wage floor limits the freedom of the ultra-wealthy so that the vast majority of people gain the freedom to make ends meet, have quality housing, and build some kind of savings. I didn't gain the ability to work my ass off to get my MSW until after I managed to get a union job that paid real money instead of the Monopoly money most modern American jobs pay relative to the cost of living.

Sure, a lot of people have cheap access to devices, but it's balanced by the fact that a lot of those devices have become the bare minimum to get through school and have a job. You can't hardly interview for a job without an internet connection these days. And possessions are hollow and meaningless when we're still punished more harshly for the equivalent crimes, brown women are still bearing the brunt of sexual violence (regardless of what white women want to believe), and, disproportionately, voting stations in precincts where politicians know we're located are the ones being understaffed and shut down. Many of us are still concentrated in suboptimal environments because politicians generations ago decided that's where it was right to lock us away through measures like redlining and deliberately put freeways through the few of our neighbourhoods that managed to thrive because "it's only brown people, who cares? Better them than Edina." And generations of WASPs choose to ignore it because "it's not my problem" while the people who grow up in these environments have nothing better to look forward to then a minimum-wage job at McDonalds.

But they got to buy an iPhone that one time!

The problem, as I see it, is that the right sells potential freedom, not realized freedom, and it's under the pretense of "not choosing winners and losers." It's like that episode of Star Trek where Picard said his duty was to let the planet blow up so as to not play god. Well, inaction was a decision. He was already playing god. He decided the people on the planet would die and rationalized away his decision to make his fee fees fuzzier. Government always picks winners and losers, even when it chooses not to act. You can use that power to give powerful people the ability to limit the freedom of others on the pretense of "liberty," or you can use that power to maximize the real liberty of the vast majority. No government is perfect and reality is always somewhere in between. I choose the "real liberty" side of the spectrum, because someone who is totally free is someone who has the power to make others not free. We came here to get away from the likes of kings.

American Gothic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:04 pm

ErickC wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:39 pm They said to the Mexican who spent his life in factories and grew up in a house without any food...

My ancestry is Swedish/Norwegian German Mexican/Jewish
I by choice live surrounded by people of color in one of the poorest cities in the my State
fuck yr Lib race batting

You're the one who insinuated that I have had no contact with these populations. I simply responded to your insinuation with the fact that I am, in fact, a member of one of those populations. That's hardly "race baiting," that's clarification. I grew up in a part of SoCal where neighbourhood gunshots were just an every day thing to get used to and ignore. My grandmother was almost shot in a drive-by because some gangbanger found the wrong house. I learned to ignore helicopters with the search lights on. When I moved to Minnesota I ended up in a similarly bad part of St. Cloud. The point isn't that I think you're any more or less experienced with the working poor, the point is that's where I come from.

I made over 2000 grand day trading bought on Friday just before 1pm and sold this morning around 9:30 am
learn some financial skill if you don't want a crap job

It's not realistic to expect the vast majority of the population to be skilled day traders. So we create systems where people can make a reasonable living working a reasonable number of hours under reasonable conditions. I don't think that's too much to ask.

You ever even been to Mexico, other than a resort, and think they are all broke?
most of Mexico's problems are Cultural and they benefit heavily from being right below the USA

Yes, in fact I have been to Mexico, and I've never been to a resort. If by "cultural" you mean that they're an extremely conservative, religious state rife with lax regulations, poor worker protections, and the corruption and chaos that come with it... yeah, you're right. That's kind of what I would rather we avoid.

even a poor person in California is better than Norway, Spain, Italy, fucking Kenya

Maybe. I am not an expert in the relative well-being of people in California versus any of those places. But the fact that others may or may not have it worse is no reason to not better ourselves as well. We can always do better. Part of doing better could be reckoning with the ways that we've systematically exploited periphery nations to reduce the price of goods here. Fighting corruption and the need for elites to exert power and control for personal gain at the local, national, and global level is going to require constant vigilance. It's the price of freedom.

American Gothic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:04 pm even a poor person in California is better than Norway,

That's verifiably and demonstrably false. Hang out on skid row in Los Angeles for one hot minute and you'll see why. Or if you don't go for the human interest story, the data also explains.

As for Kenya, you missed my point entirely.

But seriously people, I love a good argument, but this is turning into Red Scare American exceptionalism (race baiting?! really?). I'm happy to park my moderate democratic-socialist-educator versus day-trader-libertarian playbook and we can get back to all of the things that are fascinatingly wrong and right with the Biden administration.

jason from volo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:38 pm
You mentioned in one of your other posts that you had concerns over Biden’s potentially degrading cognitive abilities.

I share similar concerns. I’m not going to go so far as to demand he takes a test, but I do think the administration is not being very transparent about it.

Don’t get me wrong: I’d rather have Biden in there than the previous president, who used anger, deflection, and lies to mask the fact that he was wholly incompetent to be president (and I think only wanted the title but didn’t want any of the responsibilities), but it still worries me.

Yeah, I think he has enough humility to defer to people in his cabinet, even when they're not stroking his ego. Which is unlike the melodramatic backroom drama of the Trump administration that's garnered so many book deals.

I think Biden is still lucid. I know he's always had speech problems. The first thing that will happen is his gafffes will get worse. His critics will want to sideline him. There's a very good chance at some point he'll actually be consistently confused, and maybe think he needs a second term. That shit will be awkward.

I heard that Reagan often didn't know what was happening in his last year in office. We should be able to elect presidents with a minimum decade before alzheimers is a risk factor.

God damn it. The wall of quotes thing is just SO 10 years ago trolling. At least be creative when you’re tiresome, ok?

This is rapidly in danger of becoming a discussion of fine cheeses.

I hear gorgonzola is good. It seems like a more adventerous choice, though with a dry wine I might give it a shot.

losthighway wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:48 pm I hear gorgonzola is good. It seems like a more adventerous choice, though with a dry wine I might give it a shot.

Made a creamy Gorgonzola sauce to go with Sous Vide beef tenderloin last week for a family BDAY celebration. Had a much different flavor than a run of the mill Amish Bleu you’d find at the standard grocery store. Calmer. Milder, almost had a Parmesan thing to it which was good. I kind of missed the funk a little bit though.

losthighway wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:24 pm This is rapidly in danger of becoming a discussion of fine cheeses.

No offense intended toward y’all trying to be generous, but that shit was blatantly obvious from the first post.