jason from volo wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:25 pm No one, whether it be centrist, left, or right, should be giving an audience to racists, sexists, etc. I don't really even see those as political issues. They shouldn't be tolerated, period.

Absolutely. The problem is we live in a world where the narrative controllers make them political, because it benefits them to do so. Create division, wind people up and set them against each other.

One more quote.

The right: "Let's do genocide!"

The Left: "No."

The right: "Can we do a little bit of genocide?"

The Left: "No"

Centrists: "See, that's why nobody likes the left, you won't compromise!"

kicker_of_elves wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:20 pm

losthighway wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:50 am
- He's been willing to take the inevitable backlash by pulling out of Afghanistan. Trump (rightly gasp) talked about doing it, but whoever finishes the exit is forever on the line for any bad thing the Taliban ever does, which shows political courage.

This genuinely worries me. The US presence in Afghanistan feels like the closest thing to a stabilizing presence this region has seen since 1989. The local economy built up around Bagram AF Base is going to collapse with the departure of US troops, and the potential for chaos, violence, turbulence and despotic power grabs is already unfolding. It's always been a no-win situation, and I'm pretty far from anything remotely hawk-like in my take on involvement in foreign affairs, but it's arguable that life for the average person in Afghanistan just got measurably worse.

This was my exact thought hearing about this. Well except that I know fuck all about the concrete situation - there could be arguments for why the US military remaining doesn't help things and no improvement of conditions is in sight, for instance - but when the Taliban are retaking territory, isn't that precisely when they would be of some use? Is it certain that the Afghan government can hold their own? Imagine if the Taliban got back in power and it's like cool, back where we were 20 years ago, except the country is ravaged. What a nice message to the Afghan people that would be. And from a US geopolitical standpoint, now China is waiting to fill the space, no doubt with extensive reconstruction projects (they're already having talks).

I was reminded of what Yanis Varoufakis said when he explained why he wanted the EU to remain, despite all the shit that had been heaped upon Greece; that breaking up the union now would not make things as they would have been had the union never existed in the first place. I'm thinking along the same lines in this case.

So I'm open to having my mind changed but it just sounded like a terrible idea at the outset. I sincerely hope it didn't have anything to do with some idea of "we gotta bring the troops home" or "the war is unpopular" or whatever.

jason from volo wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:25 pm No one, whether it be centrist, left, or right, should be giving an audience to racists, sexists, etc. I don't really even see those as political issues. They shouldn't be tolerated, period.

I think I understand what you mean, and your heart seems to be in the right place, but: this thing you've said is not where the world is at, right now. So it can come off as a bit naive or detached to define "centrism" as excluding these things. I don't intend to be insulting here, but genuinely helpful - I hope that's clear.

I understand that by "racists, sexists", you're likely referring to villains who twirl their mustaches, like David Duke et al. I am thinking of that, above, but also about how racism interacts with areas like tax policy in more subtle ways, for example. This is why "centrism" to me reinforces far-right ideas - because far-right ideas undergird many of the interrelated systems that have defined the current Overton Window.

jason from volo wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:18 pm ^ That's an extreme example (genocide) that, like racism and sexism, shouldn't be tolerated by anyone.

Centrism can work on certain issues, however.

OK, but not when someone is taking everything to absolutist extremes. The Republican agenda is to deregulate all business and end all social services. If you compromise on those, they still make their goal, because you keep meeting them halfway and getting closer to what they want.

Yes, a no-win situation. I see some strong arguments here that I can't deny. The trouble is the only other choice is to remain in perpetuity.

jason from volo wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:31 pm My first impression is that it’s very possible/likely that tax policies could be classist. I’d like to read more into this though.

These things are often both at the same time, which is a double whammy for POC who are working class.

But it's the same in a lot of areas, this is why it's called systemic racism - the systems are loaded with bias - whether that's trying to get a loan or mortgage, applying for a job etc.

I don’t have the heart to raise a separate topic on this, so I’ll set down this bleak article with a scathing title down here:

While You Were Glamping Afghanistan Has Fallen

U.S. domestic politics is perhaps not the most pertinent lens on this, though I’m sure many will clamour for what was written on the receipt for the tens of billions spent on this twenty-year… what? Occupation, expedition, experiment? I’m appalled for those who’ve been left behind, utterly compromised and at the mercy of a group not known for compassion or compromise.

I was talking to a military guy I know- granted I take issue with it when civilians broadcast one army officer's read on a situation as if it were the consensus for all of the boots on the ground- but his take was basically good riddance. I imagine he represents a faction of folks who served over there and have found the mission of exporting democracy to a nation composed of tribes who hardly associate with a national identity to be an endless waste of resources and human life.

Of course now there will be another era of human sacrifice to our foreign policy blunders. Leaving doesn't unfuck the situation, but after 20 years of training the Afghan military watching it all fall in weeks makes me think staying doesn't unfuck it either. The whole thing is tragic any way we approach it.

To be optimistic I hope this closes the book on the Bush/Cheney doctrine of democracy being a beacon you can shine anywhere with enough force to help everyone lead a better life, but then again they picked that up where Vietnam left off, so it might be something we're still doing. I still think the miraculous transformation of German and Japanese society to be an anomaly that convinced the USA we can bring liberal politics to any place that needs them, whether they like it or not.