Geiginni, two pages ago… wrote:
People fear what they don’t understand, and thanks to the super low levels of people who even have the most basic understanding of cellular biology and biochemistry, have no way of objectively parsing the information out there.
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
52Dave N. wrote:Most of us are here because we’re trying to keep some spark of an idea from going out.
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
53FM bishopdante, I know from your previous posts how intelligent you are. You're totally wrong to describe this as gene therapy.losthighway wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:52 pmIt's not gene therapy. The use of that term is almost a dead give away for someone who's been reading junk science or listening to too many people who read it heavily.bishopdante wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:41 pm Well... considering I've had this thing a few times... the asshole CEO turned up to the strike of a big show *with* it, as in sick as a dog, clinically infected... he'd caught it at the wrap party...
And I just got a sniffle the next day, and off it went. Compared to the first time I had the thing... it was as nothing.
So yea... I don't think that Pfizer gene therapy thing would do me much good. My immune system would very likely flip out on it.
We probably shouldn't be vaccinating people who've had it with an experimental gene therapy drug that modifies a person's cells to produce something the immune system will attack. Surely?
But yeah, you're probably pretty much immune.
the vaccines are mRNA based, the m standing for messenger. The vaccine supplies information to the recipient's cells to allow them to create antibodies against COVID-19. This is similar, in theory, to traditional vaccines but using mRNA from the virus instead of a modified or inactivated pathogen. The recipient's cells aren't modified. It's not gene therapy.
I got double Pfizered early on because I've been exposed to COVID almost every day over the past 18 months at work. I've seen people die from it. I know people who've died from it.
Please get vaccinated. (everyone, not just FM bishopdante)
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
54That's overly simplistic.
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817
Only recent RCT study done on the subject - they make virtually no difference. Mask wearing is essentially symbolic.
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
55I'm not keenly following the US media's take on this (I'm on the other side of the pond), but I generally detect that this is seen as a much greater boogyman over there than it is here. The general consensus in the UK is that the delta variant is more transmittable than previous strains but much less threatening. The stats showing a large spike in infection rates but not in subsequent hospitalisation / fatality rates generally bares this out.losthighway wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:28 amThis is not true. The delta variant has shown a tendency to produce more dangerous symptoms in "youngish, healthy-ish people".
This seems to be a key point of disagreement. The vaccine reduces the symptoms that an individual experiences - but they are still infected. It reduces the transmission rates as a result, but they are still able to transmit the virus - especially with mild cases, which is what the overwhelming majority of people under 50 without underlying health conditions will experience. You seem to think that this is by a huge margin (hence the condom / helmet analogies), but it really isn't as significant as you seem to think. This is why your vaccine status is irrelevant to quarantining if you're exposed to the virus. Our officials know (though they are afraid to say publically) that the vaccine makes little difference in the social sphere. If they were confident that this wasn't so, they would be creating quarantine exemptions for the fully vaccinated.losthighway wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:28 amSo to your point about transmission. Again, the majority of vaccinated people do not become infected with the delta variant. Asymptomatic spread is a proven concern, but the most likely scenario is the vaccinated person remains uninfected and can't spread the virus. In the event that they are infected, it has been shown that their viral load is reduced within the body much faster than the unvaccinated, making their contagious period many times shorter.
That the cost is negligible (both individually and socially) and my disposition is not to do something for the sake of doing it because I've been told to do it. You are free to differ. I also think the notion of any government (especially the current crop of effete clowns) 'controlling' a global pandemic is absurd - though I'm clearly in a minority in being depressed with which most people have been content to give up their liberties for the illusion of safety. I'm reasonably convinced the upcoming and inevitable rises in inflation (and the impact this will have on our indebted economy and the waves of unemployment that will follow) will create infinitely more problems than the virus ever could have done.losthighway wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:28 amWhat is the cost of receiving the vaccine, that would deter you from receiving these benefits?
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
56To be fair on the mask issue, the official advice regarding masks have been quite ambiguous and inconsistent. Fauci is a meme, the Swedish Public Health Agency have changed their mind repeatedly, even WHO started out saying it didn't matter.
Look at these articles:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6549/1439
Very hedged statements, nothing to draw strong claims from, they mention that there is conflicting evidence. Granted, they still land on the verdict of mask:yes, but coupled with the rest it's not unreasonable to look at this and conclude that no one seems to be sure about anything.
Especially for someone already cynical about government and authoritative institutions (for most people, in other words) it's not a big leap to suspect this to be simply for show to make the government look like it's doing something.
Look at these articles:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6549/1439
Very hedged statements, nothing to draw strong claims from, they mention that there is conflicting evidence. Granted, they still land on the verdict of mask:yes, but coupled with the rest it's not unreasonable to look at this and conclude that no one seems to be sure about anything.
Especially for someone already cynical about government and authoritative institutions (for most people, in other words) it's not a big leap to suspect this to be simply for show to make the government look like it's doing something.
born to give
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
57Okay, so you acknowledge that the vaccine will reduce your symptoms should you become infected, and that it reduces transmission rates, and that the cost of taking the vaccine would be negligible, but you refuse to be vaccinated because someone told you to and you don't like it when people are bossy.M.H wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:54 am The vaccine reduces the symptoms that an individual experiences - but they are still infected. It reduces the transmission rates as a result, but they are still able to transmit the virus
That the cost is negligible (both individually and socially) and my disposition is not to do something for the sake of doing it because I've been told to do it.
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
58To clarify further: The part of the recipient's cells that uses the mRNA are the ribosomes. Ribosomes are the protein factories of a cell. Normally mRNA segments are produced by the transcription of DNA in your cell nucleus to produce mRNA that then travels outside the nucleus and gets captured by the ribosomes. The ribosomes contain huge enzymes that read the mRNA codon segments which encode the amino-acids that formulate a particular protein and act as little electro-chemical "machines" to assemble the amino acids floating in the cytoplasm to match the order of aminos coded in the strand of mRNA. That's how your body manufactures all the proteins and enzymes that are used to build muscle, digest food, break down other cellular material, etc...night_tools wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:04 amFM bishopdante, I know from your previous posts how intelligent you are. You're totally wrong to describe this as gene therapy.losthighway wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:52 pmIt's not gene therapy. The use of that term is almost a dead give away for someone who's been reading junk science or listening to too many people who read it heavily.bishopdante wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:41 pm Well... considering I've had this thing a few times... the asshole CEO turned up to the strike of a big show *with* it, as in sick as a dog, clinically infected... he'd caught it at the wrap party...
And I just got a sniffle the next day, and off it went. Compared to the first time I had the thing... it was as nothing.
So yea... I don't think that Pfizer gene therapy thing would do me much good. My immune system would very likely flip out on it.
We probably shouldn't be vaccinating people who've had it with an experimental gene therapy drug that modifies a person's cells to produce something the immune system will attack. Surely?
But yeah, you're probably pretty much immune.
the vaccines are mRNA based, the m standing for messenger. The vaccine supplies information to the recipient's cells to allow them to create antibodies against COVID-19. This is similar, in theory, to traditional vaccines but using mRNA from the virus instead of a modified or inactivated pathogen. The recipient's cells aren't modified. It's not gene therapy.
I got double Pfizered early on because I've been exposed to COVID almost every day over the past 18 months at work. I've seen people die from it. I know people who've died from it.
Please get vaccinated. (everyone, not just FM bishopdante)
In the case of the mRNA vaccine, the mRNA strand that is injected codes for the protein that forms the "spike" protein of the viron - which is the piece that allows the virus to infect our cells. The mRNA is encapsulated in a phospholipid "shell" so that it travels into our cells easily, where it is latched onto by a ribosome and starts manufacturing the "spike" protein which folds into the form of the spike and then travels around your body where your immune cells recognize the foreign protein and start to encode the appropriate antibody proteins that "plug into" to spike protein and thus disable its ability to enter and "infect" new cells.
The mRNA that encoded the spike protein eventually gets broken down by other enzymes an reused in the cytoplasm. The mRNA never crosses the nucleus membrane, nor enters or interacts in any way with your cellular DNA. The T-cells do encode or "memorize" the "shape" of the antibodies and "learns" to code that antibody as part of the cell's library of antibodies that it's programmed to code for.
A simple search https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... e+proteins will demonstrate these concepts clearly, and are based on 100+ years of research into cellular biology, rather than some loudmouth dipshit in the mom's basement spewing paranoid idiocy for other idiots to swallow all over FB and Twitter.
mRNA is the future of many medical treatments, and has been intensely researched for the past 20+ years. This is nothing new, but it is an amazing, more accurate, more targeted breakthrough that has so many potential applications beyond vaccines. To not "trust" such a thing is the height of stubborn ignorance.
I'm not a biochemist, or cellular biologist or anything like that. What I do have is the basic foundation of science education in physics, chemistry and biology to grasp the concepts and mechanisms behind these things, and to be able to discern what is factual information from what is fantastical bullshit.
I do not think it at all unreasonable to expect my fellow citizens to be similarly educated, and be able to discern evidence based factual information from patent bullshit and scaremongering by scientifically illiterate blowhards and media manipulators.
One of the biggest issues in our current world is to allow and accept the level of scientific illiteracy that exists amongst the general population. It is fucking travesty and unforgivable that so many adults understand so little about the fundamentals of how our modern technologies and natural world operate.
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
59It's supposed to be, because some people still somehow think that claims of masks helping are 'bogus'.
False. That's over a year old. Here's some more recent stuff for you, and I didn't have to scour the smaller countries of Europe to find them.M.H wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:06 amhttps://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817
Only recent RCT study done on the subject - they make virtually no difference. Mask wearing is essentially symbolic.
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2776536
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/land ... 4/fulltext
Dave N. wrote:Most of us are here because we’re trying to keep some spark of an idea from going out.
Re: Is anyone here NOT vaccinated yet?
60One of the issues with scientific illiteracy the public needs to come to terms with is that of being adaptable.
Everyone expects "science" to be absolute and unwavering. Few people accept the reality that science is always our best knowledge at the moment, and that our knowledge will improve as the datasets that drive that knowledge grow and provide a greater basis of data from which to draw conclusions.
As time goes on, and the greater amount of available data and finer analysis of that data allows more specific conclusions to be drawn, the more consistent and detailed messaging we'll get. But when something is new, unknown, or deviates from past phenomenon, we will be starting with small datasets and drawing broad conclusions, hoping to build better conclusions as the available data and experience builds over time.
Since humans seems to like living in a world of absolutes, with everything black/white, yes/no, do this/don't do that, the are fantastically mal-adaptive to changing information, and unforgiving as the scientific community's understanding of a particular issue improves.
Yes, the messaging has been inconsistent. Some of this has been leaders playing politics. Much of it has been the growing body of data and outcomes driving new conclusions and directives.
Don't be a fucking slug. Go with the flow. Be willing to adapt to new information and know that it's being driven by improved knowledge. It's not some conspiracy, it's just starting with little information and getting to a solid base of evidence and information over time.
Be adaptable for shitsakes.
Everyone expects "science" to be absolute and unwavering. Few people accept the reality that science is always our best knowledge at the moment, and that our knowledge will improve as the datasets that drive that knowledge grow and provide a greater basis of data from which to draw conclusions.
As time goes on, and the greater amount of available data and finer analysis of that data allows more specific conclusions to be drawn, the more consistent and detailed messaging we'll get. But when something is new, unknown, or deviates from past phenomenon, we will be starting with small datasets and drawing broad conclusions, hoping to build better conclusions as the available data and experience builds over time.
Since humans seems to like living in a world of absolutes, with everything black/white, yes/no, do this/don't do that, the are fantastically mal-adaptive to changing information, and unforgiving as the scientific community's understanding of a particular issue improves.
Yes, the messaging has been inconsistent. Some of this has been leaders playing politics. Much of it has been the growing body of data and outcomes driving new conclusions and directives.
Don't be a fucking slug. Go with the flow. Be willing to adapt to new information and know that it's being driven by improved knowledge. It's not some conspiracy, it's just starting with little information and getting to a solid base of evidence and information over time.
Be adaptable for shitsakes.