penningtron wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:01 am

zorg wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:17 am The grossness of the vaccine company leadership becoming newly minted billionaires, while their research was subsidized by taxpayer money. [/list]

It can be both true that the Pharma industry is gross, AND these vaccines are safe and essential. I'm not sure what good it does to point out the former. Also it's hardly the only industry to capitalize on the pandemic.

I agree, lets stop making demands of the rich and powerful and just be happy they’re allowing us to keep our lives. Good thing we don’t live in a poor country.

Adam P wrote: “Hey, why not roll the dice with your unvaccinated kids? They *should* be fine and if not, just have some more.”

The percentage of serious health issues in children (and this includes those with pre-existing conditions) is <1%, and my empirical evidence backs this up.
Consider, I live in a place where we have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, at no point stressed the healthcare system, experienced low mortality, AND my kids and their teachers never wore masks at school.

I get the emotional appeal of crying "hypocrisy" or shaming people who are resisting masks and vaccines. I have done both at different times. As a tactic that motivates change, however, it isn't working.

This sociologist's writing is a little heavy on abbreviation ("fx" = "for example") here, but you can search for her bylines in the Atlantic et al for a less frenzied prose. Not saying she's a savior or whatever, but the thoughts in the below thread are the closest I've seen to some kind of constructive way forward.

zorg wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:49 pm

Adam P wrote: “Hey, why not roll the dice with your unvaccinated kids? They *should* be fine and if not, just have some more.”

The percentage of serious health issues in children (and this includes those with pre-existing conditions) is <1%, and my empirical evidence backs this up.
Consider, I live in a place where we have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, at no point stressed the healthcare system, experienced low mortality, AND my kids and their teachers never wore masks at school.

“I’m unclear why it matters to…anyone who’s vaccinated”, to paraphrase. It matters to me, someone who’s vaccinated, because although my wife and I are, our children are not and cannot be until it’s approved for kids under 12. I also understand that your <1% (which I am not disputing) still represents hundreds of thousands of kids in the US alone. And while the chances are indeed quite slim, they’re still non-zero. Nobody ever thinks it will happen to them until it does. If unvaccinated people couldn’t potentially infect my kids I wouldn’t care on bit, but they can so I do.

Zero COVID is not the goal. No need to treat kids as vectors of disease in most areas. The psychological damage is a bigger concern.

Adam P wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:22 pm

zorg wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:49 pm

Adam P wrote: “Hey, why not roll the dice with your unvaccinated kids? They *should* be fine and if not, just have some more.”

The percentage of serious health issues in children (and this includes those with pre-existing conditions) is <1%, and my empirical evidence backs this up.
Consider, I live in a place where we have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, at no point stressed the healthcare system, experienced low mortality, AND my kids and their teachers never wore masks at school.

“I’m unclear why it matters to…anyone who’s vaccinated”, to paraphrase. It matters to me, someone who’s vaccinated, because although my wife and I are, our children are not and cannot be until it’s approved for kids under 12. I also understand that your <1% (which I am not disputing) still represents hundreds of thousands of kids in the US alone. And while the chances are indeed quite slim, they’re still non-zero. Nobody ever thinks it will happen to them until it does. If unvaccinated people couldn’t potentially infect my kids I wouldn’t care on bit, but they can so I do.

I can hear that you are concerned, so I don’t want to be mean, but none of the vaccines claim a 100% efficacy either. Some them even have a limited risk profile by themselves. Also it is worth noting that vaccinated people spread the virus fine, they just dont get sick, which is why the unvaxed are supposed to mask. I get that we’re close to having vaccines for kids, but it’s also worth considering that it was never a substantial risk, and perhaps we’ve already asked enough of them.

hbiden@onlyfans.com wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:56 pm Zero COVID is not the goal. No need to treat kids as vectors of disease in most areas. The psychological damage is a bigger concern.

Brother, I’m not sure where you’re getting this horseshit information, but if it was free you still overpaid. Of course they’re trying to effectively get rid of the disease. Same as smallpox, TB, Pertussis, etc.

Frankie99 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:11 am

hbiden@onlyfans.com wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:56 pm Zero COVID is not the goal. No need to treat kids as vectors of disease in most areas. The psychological damage is a bigger concern.

Brother, I’m not sure where you’re getting this horseshit information, but if it was free you still overpaid. Of course they’re trying to effectively get rid of the disease. Same as smallpox, TB, Pertussis, etc.

What are you talking about? No, there's no such thing as zero risk. Zorg laid it out right above, read it. I'm trying to be realistic here. We have to face facts.

zorg wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:14 am

Adam P wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:22 pm

zorg wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:49 pm The percentage of serious health issues in children (and this includes those with pre-existing conditions) is <1%, and my empirical evidence backs this up.
Consider, I live in a place where we have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, at no point stressed the healthcare system, experienced low mortality, AND my kids and their teachers never wore masks at school.

“I’m unclear why it matters to…anyone who’s vaccinated”, to paraphrase. It matters to me, someone who’s vaccinated, because although my wife and I are, our children are not and cannot be until it’s approved for kids under 12. I also understand that your <1% (which I am not disputing) still represents hundreds of thousands of kids in the US alone. And while the chances are indeed quite slim, they’re still non-zero. Nobody ever thinks it will happen to them until it does. If unvaccinated people couldn’t potentially infect my kids I wouldn’t care on bit, but they can so I do.

I can hear that you are concerned, so I don’t want to be mean, but none of the vaccines claim a 100% efficacy either. Some them even have a limited risk profile by themselves. Also it is worth noting that vaccinated people spread the virus fine, they just dont get sick, which is why the unvaxed are supposed to mask. I get that we’re close to having vaccines for kids, but it’s also worth considering that it was never a substantial risk, and perhaps we’ve already asked enough of them.

Vaccinated people, if they get infected (which is still a lot less likely), have high viral loads but for a shorter length of time, compared with unvaccinated people who get infected. So they’re less likely to spread the virus for two reasons: less likely to get infected, and shorter duration of infection/infectiousness.

It’s true that the risk of serious outcomes among kids is very low, but kids also go home at the end of each school day. They still interact with people at higher risk.

I feel compelled to say that as a teacher of 9-10 year olds, and the father of a new kindergartner who went to preschool daily last year, this psychological damage from masks stuff is horse shit. My wife and I are pretty firmly planted in the sensitive parenting, child psychology, talking about feelings, listening to parenting podcasts (my wife more than I), overthinking all of our choices, touchy-feely parent culture (to a degree, those people can be assholes too), and I just can't relate to people talking like their kids are going to be scarred from wearing cloth, and seeing kids wearing cloth over their face.

It will be memorable. It's not ideal, or great, but this trauma bullshit assumes extreme fragility and is largely being argued by people (and pundits) without kids for political purposes.

The thing that’s going to fuck your kids up psychologically is called “rugged individualism”, and it comes from America. There are tons of little kids in East Asia who wear masks every flu season.