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Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

11 by cakes
Garth wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:22 pm If you're mostly happy w/ the guitar sound, then maybe for the bass, you could maybe try a combo of the IR cab sim (y'know since that's kinda like the virtual version of a mic on the cab, right?) in tandem with a decent DI. I did some stuff recently w/ one of those active Radials and was VERY happy w/ it. Minimal fussing in both pre and post.
That's... interesting. A DI right into the board, mixed with the IR... that's like, crazy man! But I think I see where you're going with that.

When recording bass cabs, do you sometimes find getting the bass with a DI a good compliment?

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

12 by Garth
cakes wrote: When recording bass cabs, do you sometimes find getting the bass with a DI a good compliment?
Yeah that's kind of a studio staple for bass: A mic'd cab combined w/ DI of some sort. Recently discussed here in another thread, but my personal taste is in dissent w/ most other heads 'round here in that I usually prefer the DI alone for most stuff, especially if you're just trying to capture a clean bass tone.

For more distorted bass - or if the overall tone/sound/character is integral and encapsulated by the bass player's rig, then yeah mic that thing (or in your case, the IR Cab sim).

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

13 by cakes
Garth wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:01 pm
cakes wrote: When recording bass cabs, do you sometimes find getting the bass with a DI a good compliment?
Yeah that's kind of a studio staple for bass: A mic'd cab combined w/ DI of some sort. Recently discussed here in another thread, but my personal taste is in dissent w/ most other heads 'round here in that I usually prefer the DI alone for most stuff, especially if you're just trying to capture a clean bass tone.

For more distorted bass - or if the overall tone/sound/character is integral and encapsulated by the bass player's rig, then yeah mic that thing (or in your case, the IR Cab sim).
This is the kind of quality answer that you can only find on a true premier rock forum.

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

14 by numberthirty
Without trying to be a complete Debbie Downer, here's my take...

- For starters, consider only fixing problems that are seriously squeaky wheels. Right now? The "Guitar..." end doesn't feel like it is actually squeaking.

- That brings us to this specific bass issue. Any chance that you have a recording that you feel paints a pretty clear picture of this particular bass sound's shortcomings?

- Past all of that, can you go into the specifics of this bass sound? Something might stick out as a potential issue.

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

15 by cakes
numberthirty wrote: Without trying to be a complete Debbie Downer, here's my take...

- For starters, consider only fixing problems that are seriously squeaky wheels. Right now? The "Guitar..." end doesn't feel like it is actually squeaking.

- That brings us to this specific bass issue. Any chance that you have a recording that you feel paints a pretty clear picture of this particular bass sound's shortcomings?

- Past all of that, can you go into the specifics of this bass sound? Something might stick out as a potential issue.
First, thank you for your response and I think these are great questions, definitely things that Garth was touching that I have been thinking about.

Yes, the guitar sounds pretty good. If anything, the final mix could use some EQ/comp, but not quite there yet. I did play around with some things last night to liven up the mix just to get an idea, but I don't even have drums yet. I'm really just at the stage of playing around and getting a feel of how I want the music to sound.

The bass is lacking a little... oomf. I like Garth's suggestion to record bass direct for the clean tone and mix in with the amp/IR. I think what's missing is the pure bass tone that can get lost in translation in the amp/IR box. I'm not a recording engineer, just someone learning on my own, but I've recorded in a few different high-end studios in my life, and I do recall the bass getting some special treatment in subs and DI and compression. A good DI isn't really that expensive and I've got the space on the board, so I thought I'd give it a try. I will start with a blend of DI and amp/IR mixed down into a single channel. Probably find a decent compressor plugin and go from there, (though I've been really eyeing some compression hardware that's in my budget).

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

16 by Garth
cakes wrote:The bass is lacking a little... oomf.
this could mean many things, but I'm interpreting it as something in the low-end information. If you're referring to how the bass sounds in the overall mix, this could be as simple as carving some low or low-mids eq out of the guitar to give it a little more place in the sonic spectrum. Or could try finding the where the click and attack of the bass is and then notching it it out w/ a eq cut a bit - and then put in a compressor (possibly in parallel combined w/ original uncompressed signal).

But so so so much of how a bass sounds depends on how it's played, where it's played in relation to the bridge, as well as the bass itself and the pickups (and where they are on the body). If the P-bass is sounding more like what you all want, maybe see if your bandmate is open to that conversation?
cakes wrote:A good DI isn't really that expensive
Correct. If I can recommend a very good DI for passive bass, I've been hooked on the Radial JDI. If you want to save a couple bucks, the Radial Pro48 is also excellent minus a couple bells/whistles. There should be plenty of them available used for low-dough.

I don't use a ton of outboard compression on bass anymore but I think my overall favorite one that I've used so far for that application is probably the DBX 160A. Simple, straight forward control set. There may be better & w/ more features, but you're starting to run into real money quickly. Probably second favorite and a little more affordable would be the FMR RNC which also adds attack/release knobs.

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

18 by cakes
brownreasontolive wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:31 am What's in front of the amp? (sorry if this is already clearly mentioned)
I'm using a reactive load box with an IR box. I'm using a IR fridge cab with 2 mics close up. Can't remember the specifics. No mics, all direct. IRs are amazing, especially for home recording. I could go into the software and try to adjust for his style, but I'm not sure it's going to make a huge impact.
Last edited by cakes on Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

19 by cakes
Garth wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:22 am
cakes wrote:The bass is lacking a little... oomf.
this could mean many things, but I'm interpreting it as something in the low-end information. If you're referring to how the bass sounds in the overall mix, this could be as simple as carving some low or low-mids eq out of the guitar to give it a little more place in the sonic spectrum. Or could try finding the where the click and attack of the bass is and then notching it it out w/ a eq cut a bit - and then put in a compressor (possibly in parallel combined w/ original uncompressed signal).

But so so so much of how a bass sounds depends on how it's played, where it's played in relation to the bridge, as well as the bass itself and the pickups (and where they are on the body). If the P-bass is sounding more like what you all want, maybe see if your bandmate is open to that conversation?
cakes wrote:A good DI isn't really that expensive
Correct. If I can recommend a very good DI for passive bass, I've been hooked on the Radial JDI. If you want to save a couple bucks, the Radial Pro48 is also excellent minus a couple bells/whistles. There should be plenty of them available used for low-dough.

I don't use a ton of outboard compression on bass anymore but I think my overall favorite one that I've used so far for that application is probably the DBX 160A. Simple, straight forward control set. There may be better & w/ more features, but you're starting to run into real money quickly. Probably second favorite and a little more affordable would be the FMR RNC which also adds attack/release knobs.
I carved out a lot of bass from the guitars already. In fact, I've been using a boost pedal modeled after the old Treblemaster. It already cuts out a lot of low end, and I have the low-end cut already on when recording. So, the bass actually doesn't share too much space with the guitars. The main problem is the bass guitar itself, and I know you can't really polish a turd, though the bass doesn't necessary sound bad per se, just that I can get it to sound better with my P-Bass. But, I am still very interested in using the DI to blend, because I do have to EQ low end that I think adding a DI would probably be more appropriate (or interesting anyway).

I totally get what you're saying about how the bass is played and the tones and all that. I'm not the bass player here, and I don't want to step on my buddy's toes or record over his bass parts. I think yes, part of it is he needs to learn some bass techniques as far as recording goes. He's got a much lighter touch on bass than me and my preference on attack, but whatever that's his style. I'm just trying to capture it the best way I can.

Anyway, this is a really fun issue to try to solve!

Re: Guitar/Bass Studio Preamps

20 by brownreasontolive
cakes wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:20 am
brownreasontolive wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:31 am What's in front of the amp? (sorry if this is already clearly mentioned)
I'm using a reactive load box with an IR box. I'm using a IR fridge cab with 2 mics close up. Can't remember the specifics. No mics, all direct. IRs are amazing, especially for home recording. I could go into the software and try to adjust for his style, but I'm not sure it's going to make a huge impact.
Sorry, what I meant is, what is ahead of it in the signal path. Is the player using a bunch of pedals?

The input/output caps in the majority of od/distortion pedals are going to rob you of a lot of low frequency information natural to your bass.
While something like a big may sound thick and have plenty of bass content, it's square-waving the shit of the signal and killing your transient information.

I was trying to suss out whether "oomf" was about perceivable bass content, energy or transient information.

Another thought - is it possible there is latency/phase weirdness in applying the impulse response?
Do you have the same problem using "one mic" on the fridge sim? Can you simulate flipping the phase on one of the 2 "mics"?
Is there a "blend" of direct happening?
The potential for psychoacoustic/phase weirdness with IR seems huge.
DIY and die anyway.
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