tallchris wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:14 pm

boilermaker wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:09 pm

tallchris wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:02 pm If you're gonna include the DKs (who weren't hardcore to begin) or Bad Brains & Black Flag (who both moved away from it after establishing it) I don't see how you can't include Huskers or Die Kruezen.

I explained why.

I mean, Huskers made three albums (okay two LPs and, one mini-album, and one 7" EP) that would qualify as hardcore. That's as many releases as DK.

I never considered those albums (apart from the debut one) hard core. And that sound is not what they are most known for.
But I can see how everyone has a different opinion of what hard core is.
Today when mentioning hardcore I guess most people would think of that tough guy bandana and sport jerseys wearing punk/metal mix.

I just meant the late 70/early 80 faster/heavier take on the 76/77punk rock. Call it what you will.
As someone mentioned before, I guess Minor Threat would be the only true hc band (maybe cause they existed for such a short period) out of those four.
BF started as a punk band, were getting faster and heavier with time (what would be called hard core in the early 80s) and then started experimenting with different styles (prog rock, free jazz, heavy metal/doom metal). BD mixed reggae with their version of punk and then later crossed over to that awful metal/funk mix.
DK I guess never were truly hardcore..twangy/surfy guitars. But still, unlike bands like Minutemen, I can still see them being mentioned with those bands from above. I don't know, maybe it's because of the vocals and the vocal delivery.

What I am trying to say is that I never lumped Huskers with those late 70s/early 80s second wave of American punk rock or hardcore bands. But more with Minutemen, Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets...

jason from volo wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:08 pm This may get me ostracized from this board, but I am just not a fan of Bad Brains

randall'd yr post

I've never cared much for hardcore anyway, but Bad Brains just sucks. I've always thought they sucked. Before I knew about their homophobia I contended they sucked. On the old board I stated that they sucked. And they suck now. Suckage!

Voting Dead Kennedys

Minor Threat, by several inches.

boilermaker wrote:What I am trying to say is that I never lumped Huskers with those late 70s/early 80s second wave of American punk rock or hardcore bands. But more with Minutemen, Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets...

I can see this both ways, but I totally get why Hüsker Dü would not make this list.

Ok, I don't know that, strictly speaking, the band is much more of a "real" hardcore act than Flag or the DKs. Again, from where I sit, Minor Threat is the only HC thru-and-thru contender in this list.

That said, I think the Hüskers were perhaps less influential to proper hardcore in general than the others. They crossed into indie/college radio-friendly sounds pretty early on, maybe even starting w/Metal Circus, and stayed there until the end. And before the hardcore phase, that first 7-inch is a straight-up UK-influenced post-punk record. Plus the band was initially relegated to the Minutemen's decidedly nonhardcore New Alliance label, as opposed to big daddy SST. To me, Hüsker Dü is a little like the Meat Puppets (or, much later, Honor Role) in that they made one or two very fucked-up hardcore records but it was more of a phase.

God, this is tough.

In terms of the best hardcore record from these four, it's very close between the Bad Brains ROIR cassette and the Minor Threat comp w/ the first 2 eps. DK's hardcore moments (In God We Trust and the last LP) sucked a country mile IMO; total "how do you do, fellow kids" music.

For sheer musicality across their career, Minor Threat fall dead last, then it's Flag (exceptional vision and drive for growth often marred by execution in most cases), D.Ks (underrated) and then the Bad Brains.

All have great records, but I probably like more music across Flag's many phases. Though it's hard to argue w/ Plastic Surgery Disasters. And the Bad Brains really took the most fully realised step forward w/ I Against I.

Argh

Bad Brains.

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:09 pm To me, Hüsker Dü is a little like the Meat Puppets (or, much later, Honor Role) in that they made one or two very fucked-up hardcore records but it was more of a phase.

Yeah, I can roll w/ this for sure. Huskers definitely had that trajectory of Ramones/Buzzcocks hooky punk->PIL influenced post-punk->hardcore before they started melding all three of them w/ the song "Everything Falls Apart" and then Metal Circus.

Agree that Minor Threat is "purest" hardcore band from these four, but even they were stretching out somewhat musically towards the end w/ "Salad Days" (which I like a lot and frankly would have liked to hear how that would have developed).

I just keep thinking of specific songs that are unfuckwithable. Like if Bad Brains was on stage and then played "Right Brigade" and you had to go on right after, how could you even hang? "Rise Above" would suffice, "Screaming at a Wall" could hang in there, but you just can't beat an HR screech with backflip no matter how many Henry Garfield veins pop out on a neck, or how many bald fingers MacKaye wags (much as I love them both).

I'm probably in the minority in that my favorite Black Flag releases are In My Head and The Process of Weeding Out. I have picked Bad Brains because I think they achieved the greatest heights musically.

Earth A.D. might be the apex of US hardcore. It's hard, apolitical, and dumb fun.

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:26 pm

jason from volo wrote:This may get me ostracized from this board, but I am just not a fan of Dead Kennedys or Minor Threat.

Hard to get past Jello's voice.

Eh, if you know Robert Calvert era Hawkwind, you know where Iello got his vocal influence, and some lyrical stylings. IIRC he was a huge Calvert fan.
Jello was definitely the most creative songwriter of them all, and DKs the most creative music, IMO. But of all four perhaps, looking back, the least hardcore of the four. But yeah back they were def considered it.

I fucking love Black Flag up through My War. Best South Bay band of them all. Yes, better than Minutemen.

I voted DK, maybe it's the California skater (boards, not Roller Blades!) I grew up as who's voting; I might include Youth Brigade in this as well as hardcore.

If I had to rank:

DK
BF
MT
BB

Like Randall, I was never a fan of BB. I tried. It'd one of those bands you're not supposed to dislike. I'm sure if I grew up in DC at the time I'd feel much differently. Perhaps being from California is why I prefer DK and BF.

Agree that MT were pretty much the Platonic form "hardcore" by the time they were on the scene. The took what Bad Brains started and, ahem, polished it, perhaps. BB was pure distillate, MT was really rough whiskey.

Plastic Surgery Disasters is one of the best records ever, by any band. Listening now. The lyrics are brilliant and hilarious and scary.

"I want a wife with tits!"
"TV invents a disease you think you have"
"But hey! What about the cocaine, stockpiled in the basement, oh yeah you're gonna need it/Where's your brand new pretty wife? she might still be inside. Either save her or your cocaine from the fire."

Maybe I'm nostalgic for the time when TV was the opiate of the masses...

If Fred Schneider does an impression of Jello Biafra it's spot on right. Like the best impression you have ever heard in your life.