Seems better here than in General C/NC.

I have really low ceilings in my basement and drums can be challenging. I've gone back and forth between X/Y and a spaced pair a million times and Spaced Pair always sounded too wide and splashy and X/Y always sounds too pinched and almost just a wide mono. This has lead me to usually just throw up Mono OH because if the stereo is bad, I'd rather not deal with it. The other day I tried ORTF (something I've really never thought to do on drums for some reason) and it was almost perfect. What's you poison? Do you find anything specific to be better in small/large/other spaces?

How are your ORTF mics positioned? Down toward the kit (perpendicular to the ceiling) or out into the room (parallel to the ceiling)? Are they each pointed off axis so the center of the V is over the kit, or is one pointed toward the kit and the other 110 degrees away from it? Are you using SDCs or something else? I'm interested!

I also record in a basement and use a mono overhead (mounted to a floor joist) more or less centered over the (very minimal) kit. Typically it's a 4033 about a foot down from the "ceiling" (subfloor) to avoid any weird reflections. I usually keep the whole kit mono and centered in the mix, but it's always fun to try something new.

Tom Wanderer wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:04 pm How are your ORTF mics positioned? Down toward the kit (perpendicular to the ceiling) or out into the room (parallel to the ceiling)? Are they each pointed off axis so the center of the V is over the kit, or is one pointed toward the kit and the other 110 degrees away from it? Are you using SDCs or something else? I'm interested!

I also record in a basement and use a mono overhead (mounted to a floor joist) more or less centered over the (very minimal) kit. Typically it's a 4033 about a foot down from the "ceiling" (subfloor) to avoid any weird reflections. I usually keep the whole kit mono and centered in the mix, but it's always fun to try something new.

Perpendicular to the ceiling pointing straight down, about 6.5 feet up, the V of the mic split is directly over the kick beater. Usually it is either Oktava 012 or Shure SM81. The Left mic points almost directly at the hats, the right mic points almost directly at the floor tom. I didn't break out a compass for the 110 degrees, just kinda eyeballed it. I've found that Mid/Side doesn't work well in my basement at all as well, no matter what combo of mics I use. If I do a Mono, it is usually a Neuman TLM103, a single Sm81, or sometimes a cheap ribbon, but if I do a ribbon I place it out front a bit and high so the back lobe isn't pointing directly at the ceiling, kinda a 45ish degree angle. If I had room behind the kit, I would do that placement behind the drummer so it got less low end energy and more top end.

Here is a little test recording we did on Sunday. Excuse the playing, he was just kinda making it up as he went and is not used to playing with a click. Also excuse the heavy gate on the snare, we tried using a clip on side arm mic mount on the hat stand to mic the snare because I'm short on stands, the mechanical noise from the hi hat was almost as loud as the snare. other than that, its just way too much compression. Toms, also terrible. But this is the best OH sound I've been able to get in a room with barely 7 foot ceilings with fairly pedestrian mics/preamps.

https://soundcloud.com/jason-tuller-1/jeremy-jamz

I'd think that low height might be prone to some phase issues? You did mono summing to confirm?

Usually I do mono overhead but that's half due to only having 4 great pre's, 4 quite decent ones & 8 barely ok ones and the other half being the aforementioned phase issues back when I used to try stuff like this - XY usually kept that tight but I think ORTF did not - although maybe I didn't have the break angle far enough apart to reject the other side of the kit more...? Or maybe I'm thinking more of the split overhead where they were on individual stands up and behind like a big ol' triangle....I've been mono so long I don't really remember tbh

Garth wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:44 pm I'd think that low height might be prone to some phase issues? You did mono summing to confirm?

Usually I do mono overhead but that's half due to only having 4 great pre's, 4 quite decent ones & 8 barely ok ones and the other half being the aforementioned phase issues back when I used to try stuff like this - XY usually kept that tight but I think ORTF did not - although maybe I didn't have the break angle far enough apart to reject the other side of the kit more...? Or maybe I'm thinking more of the split overhead where they were on individual stands up and behind like a big ol' triangle....I've been mono so long I don't really remember tbh

This doesn't sound too bad in Mono to me.

A spaced pair is always too phasey. With the really low ceilings, X/Y might as well just be a wide mono, the ORTF is kinda the best of both world in this tiny space, I get a little spread and they are coincident enough to not sound to washy. Still not perfect, but I'm never going for perfect. I am still panning the OH about 75-80% L-R because I have hard panned everything. I'm going to tweek a few things and test around some more. I'm just using the preamps in my Allen Heath mixer for this.

I'm leaning towards M/S right now but only partially blending the sides in. Wide stereo can introduce a lot of annoying issues for sure, but mono overhead/front of the kit just never sounds like quite enough for me.

I never liked spaced pair.

X/Y can be fine but I almost never do that.

Default for years has been a sort of modified Glyn Johns setup: condenser over the snare, m160 just to the right and behind my right shoulder, aimed at the general snare/hat/rack area. I never really liked how the m160 sounded in a regular oh position (whatever that means, y'know, pointing down), but in this spot it sounds great, gets a nice crunchy midrange on the snare and really good punchy low mids on the kick. The condenser is brighter, more scooped and they compliment each other well.

In the mix I usually just leave them both panned center and get width from stereo room mics, but sometimes I pan them out 10+2ish and it works fine, maybe I eq the 160 a little more than normal.

First thing that comes to mind is a low ceiling should be a dead ceiling when recording. I only started to get away with decent drum sounds in my old basement after I covered the ceiling in rigid fiberglass. There was still plenty of early reflections to be had off of the walls, and something with a little more length to the sound with a room mic further away.

As for configurations:

X/Y: I agree it's the tamest sounding approach (other than maybe single mono overhead). But it is also never going to ruin anything. Anything I ever did with XY overheads, I was able to get energy and spark in the kit sound with the other mics/compression/distortion/room mics/ reverb whatever.

ORTF: Also agree that it's like a slightly more exciting version of XY. There's kind of a semi-blind spot in the middle of that 110 degree angle, not a null, but I swear it softens things just a little in the middle. I always overthink where that middle spot should point, but it's never actually mattered when it came time to mix.

Spaced pair: Similar to what Space Echo is saying (smart dude, have him master your shit), I don't dig the modern studio photo setup with two mics at equal heights with a picturesque symmetry. My favorite approach is the George Massenberg method. Basically one mic is centered above the rack tom, the other at the floor tom. The working principal being that 95% of rock drummers' cymbal work is going to be so goddamned loud, you're not going to miss it by focusing on the toms. Sometimes the tone of the toms in those overheads is really nice. I've gotten away with ribbons in this spot and no close mics on the toms with a player with good balance. Lastly, I do the anal retentive thing where I measure from the snare to each mic, resulting in a floor tom/ride side mic a fair bit lower than the one on the snare/tom side.

I recently did something crazy with a left, right, center setup. Small diaphrams in the "Massenberg" style described above, with a ribbon kind of out front, sort of looking through the cymbals at the snare, equidistant from the snare as the other overheads. It came out really sharp and punchy and gave me a lot to play with in the overall drum image. It's kind of weird for me to have so many mics up, and I generally believe the more channels you have running the more you're looking for entropy with phase problems etc..... but it worked. I've been hesitant to dive into the madness again.

Kniferide wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:22 pm Here is a little test recording we did on Sunday. Excuse the playing, he was just kinda making it up as he went and is not used to playing with a click. Also excuse the heavy gate on the snare, we tried using a clip on side arm mic mount on the hat stand to mic the snare because I'm short on stands, the mechanical noise from the hi hat was almost as loud as the snare. other than that, its just way too much compression. Toms, also terrible. But this is the best OH sound I've been able to get in a room with barely 7 foot ceilings with fairly pedestrian mics/preamps.

https://soundcloud.com/jason-tuller-1/jeremy-jamz

Yeah, those cymbals and overall image work just fine. I wouldn't say the toms are terrible, but I imagine you probably want a little more oomph.