This morning, I read a back-and-forth that the economist Noah Smith started by asserting that the most expensive hotel in a region is never more than 2X as good as the cheapest. Smith is dead wrong, of course; cheap hotels might have bedbugs and broken showers and rooms that serve as mobile meth labs.

But it did get me thinking (again) about the frequent ridiculousness of audiophilia. While the cheapest cables might have build-quality issues, expensive cables are a famous ripoff. But what about other components? At what price point does the amount you spend cease to matter?

Here’s what I’ve found in my limited experience:

Nice speakers unquestionably sound better than mid-price speakers, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard speakers that cost more than, say, $2K a pair. At what price point do you hit the limit of quality?

As far as I can tell, you hit the limit on quality for CD players pretty early up the price curve.

I’m not sold yet on phono cartridges either, though I’ve only compared them via compressed YouTube files. I can definitely discern a big difference between a $20 cartridge and a $500 one, but once you hit about $70? I really can’t tell the difference most of the time, and when I can, it’s either incredibly subtle, or I can’t judge one to be better than the other. But again, this is via YouTube.

Any thoughts?

the best you have heard is the best you have heard. doesn't mean it doesn't get better. The reason you cannot hear an improvement over a $70 cartridge may have more to do with your associated components than the cartridges themselves. And listening to hifi comparisons over you tube is patently ridiculous, for obvious reasons.

I am a cable skeptic, but there are vast differences in CD players, DACs, Turntables, Cartridges, Tonearms, preamps and power amps. and of course speakers. also, the biggest factor that very few people talk about is the speaker/room interaction. poor speaker placement, poor room treatment and mis-match between speaker and room are huge.

I also tend to believe that the source components matter more than amps and speakers, provided the speakers match the room and the amp matches the speakers. You know, garbage in garbage out...

I am, however with you in that I am skeptical that a $300,000 amp is that much better than a $30,000 one. Illogically, I have no problem believing that a $30,000 amp is going to sound noticeably better than an $3000 amp. And I know from experience that there are significant improvements to be had between a $3000 amp over a $300 amp.

motorbike guy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:31 am I am a cable skeptic, but there are vast differences in CD players, DACs

I'm looking into CD players again due to being fed up with the vinyl boom, and am trying to gauge how much I need to spend on something 'good'. Other than the DAC stage I'm having a hard time understanding why some CD players are $3,000: how overboard does one need to go to read a 16 bit file off a disc..

In my experience, when it comes to apartment volume, you can get about 80-85% of the way to the max with something like an old Yamaha or Marantz integrated in good nick, $800-1000 worth of good bookshelf speakers, and a good $500 turntable with a $100 cartridge. A couple grand worth of components.

If you want to fill a big room, maybe 50% more, so like $3000-3500 to get 80-85% of max best sound.

Everything is incremental after that, and returns diminish a lot.

My main home stereo was about $6.5k for table/cartridge, preamps, amp, speakers. Some new, some old and used. It's probably 90% of max possible awesome sound possible in the universe. I would have to spend about twice as much to to get to 95%. Best possible sound in my living room, you're probably looking at $25k for those components, based on nosebleed-level shit I have heard in fancy stereo places.

In terms of just listening to music, 80% of the way there is probably not going to be even the slightest bit of a drag. Like my stuff is more than enough fidelity to enjoy music, and I have no real desire to upgrade.

When my CD player took a dump, I got a Marantz CD6005, and it totally wrecked the old one. Not even close. I think it was $600, replacing a 25yr-old $300 one.

But that's modern digital vs old digital.

When I was thinking I wanted a new turntable ten years ago, I tried my now-30 (!) yr old Rega Planar 3 ($800-900 then, few hundred in upgrades since) against a new Planar 3 ($1400) and just for kicks a new Planar 8 (like $3500-3800). Eh. Underwhelmed, and nothing else I tried seemed that much better. I kept the old table.

I think the cable industry is hilarious, esp power cables. Really funny.

Speaker/room interaction is soooo important.

I recently moved house and my setup sounds $1000s of dollars better in my new place. I like listening to music again. I realize now that I didn't listen as much for a couple years because the room was shit.

motorbike guy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:31 am the best you have heard is the best you have heard. doesn't mean it doesn't get better. The reason you cannot hear an improvement over a $70 cartridge may have more to do with your associated components than the cartridges themselves. And listening to hifi comparisons over you tube is patently ridiculous, for obvious reasons.

No doubt, but it’s definitely a component I would want to A/B test in the real world, with people who are familiar with my components and room and their limitations.

Having said that, the comments on those videos are pretty funny. We’re all listening to compressed YouTube videos, set some commentators declare that “the differences are OBVIOUS if you have FUNCTIONAL EARS! You can CLEARLY hear more zazz in David Gilmour’s guitar!”

I am a cable skeptic, but there are vast differences in CD players, DACs, Turntables, Cartridges, Tonearms, preamps and power amps. and of course speakers. also, the biggest factor that very few people talk about is the speaker/room interaction. poor speaker placement, poor room treatment and mis-match between speaker and room are huge.

I also tend to believe that the source components matter more than amps and speakers, provided the speakers match the room and the amp matches the speakers. You know, garbage in, garbage out.

We recently upgraded our integrated amp, from an inexpensive fifteen-year-old Denon to a Marantz PM7000, and the difference was huge. And I think a lot of that difference came from proper matching of the amp and speakers (KEF LS50s).

Room is a tough one, since we just don’t have much on the way of options.

motorbike guy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:31 am the biggest factor that very few people talk about is the speaker/room interaction. poor speaker placement, poor room treatment and mis-match between speaker and room are huge.

DING DING DING DING. By far the most important things. I would much rather have a pair of $200 speakers in a really good room than a $20,000 pair in a shit room. No contest.

That's for working. For just listening to music for fun I'm way less picky, the setups we have in our living room and my office are both perfectly fine to me, neither are anything special and there's no room treatment in the house.

penningtron wrote: I'm looking into CD players again due to being fed up with the vinyl boom, and am trying to gauge how much I need to spend on something 'good'.

You definitely don't need to spend anything close to 3 grand! You could get a super duper world class D/A for half that and feed it with any old cd player with an optical out. But honestly you could probably just grab something from your local thrift shop and so long as it works and isn't from like 1987 it's going to sound fine.

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:

penningtron wrote: I'm looking into CD players again due to being fed up with the vinyl boom, and am trying to gauge how much I need to spend on something 'good'.

You definitely don't need to spend anything close to 3 grand! You could get a super duper world class D/A for half that and feed it with any old cd player with an optical out. But honestly you could probably just grab something from your local thrift shop and so long as it works and isn't from like 1987 it's going to sound fine.

Repeating myself but the mid-level (maybe it's the cheapest) Marantz will probably blow yer mind if you're replacing an old CD player.

Music Direct has a rehabbed CD6007 for $640...https://www.musicdirect.com/disc-player ... -CD-Player

OMFG

I know there are folks on here who are, understandably, very particular about their sound, but damn, I've got other things I need to spend money on.

Get me to the 80% threshold for quality, which I suspect for any single component is no more than a few hundred dollars, and I'm good.

Agree on room considerations. Pretty sure my house is not acoustically optimal. Not really much of a point spending a lot in that kind of situation.

For those of you where sound or music is your job... I completely understand spending top dollar on the best components available. And I don't judge anyone else who is really particular. But... yeah... that's not me.

penningtron wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:41 pm

motorbike guy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:31 am I am a cable skeptic, but there are vast differences in CD players, DACs

I'm looking into CD players again due to being fed up with the vinyl boom, and am trying to gauge how much I need to spend on something 'good'. Other than the DAC stage I'm having a hard time understanding why some CD players are $3,000: how overboard does one need to go to read a 16 bit file off a disc..

Rega and Rotel are my go to recommendations for CD Players.

I do not use a CD player any more, I have all my CDs ripped to a hard drive, which is connected to the Bluesound Node.