A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:22 pm

Curry Pervert wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 2:21 pm In the graphic shown, if the left move right in an attempt to court the voters that lean to the right and then they win, they see that as an endorsement that they did the correct thing to win an election. To keep winning, which is what they want to do, they now believe they have to maintain that position or even keep moving further to the right.

This is why the centrist argument of "let's just win first and then we can pull them back to the left" is a fallacy.

If your electorate is fucking mute, sure. Otherwise, that's absolute bollocks.

I love a well reasoned rebuttal.

This makes me wonder: How many intelligent, well informed people in the US have gotten to vote for someone they really love? Their paragon of political virtue.

How many people in the world?

losthighway wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:57 pm This makes me wonder: How many intelligent, well informed people in the US have gotten to vote for someone they really love? Their paragon of political virtue.

How many people in the world?

In a primary? Yes.

At the local or state level? Yes.

For president in the general election? Nope. Obama in ‘08 may have been closest.

jfv wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 8:17 pm

losthighway wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:57 pm This makes me wonder: How many intelligent, well informed people in the US have gotten to vote for someone they really love? Their paragon of political virtue.

How many people in the world?

In a primary? Yes.

At the local or state level? Yes.

For president in the general election? Nope. Obama in ‘08 may have been closest.

Yup.

It's a messy fucking country, a messy fucking world. Politics is messy. LIFE is fucking messy.
It seems like the ultimate form of ego/self righteousness to think your going to be able to find that in a country this size. And then to REFUSE to participate and call those who compromise unintelligent, sheep, etc. I don't even have that many FRIENDS that are my "paragon of virtue"

Straight talk...

While I don't think that I have ever done something like calling anyone "Sheep..."?

This "Compromise..." folks keep talking about is exactly how things got here.

The idea that one should just keep right one fronting Wimpy burgers when he has never so much as looked like he was thinking about paying you back?

At some point, you ought to think over if continuing to do so actually makes sense.

^ This all depends on what you mean.

I think most of the folks on here you're trying to persuade are talking about the act of voting on someone for federal office on election day. Not campaigning, caucusing, voting in a primary, demonstrating or any of those other activities. No one bought a Biden bumper sticker during the primaries (or if someone on here did I'd love to have a conversation because that's fascinating). Just getting a ballot and saying 'Better this one than that one I suppose.' This is after all kinds of internet hubub, primary voting, trying to spread the word on someone actually inspiring. After that battle was fought and lost.

If you're getting into the sheeple thing and want to speak to people that believe that Clinton's 3rd way is the only practical way to go and the rest is for college kids who haven't seen the world yet, then yeah. I'm clearly lining up to beat that straw man I just invented alongside you.

But if you're talking about people who should think more about making sure they don't vote for some weak ass democrat when a fascist is running against them, I'll remind you of what you already pointed out. There are a shit ton of people who haven't voted. A non vote is another drop in the ocean of non votes.

We've seen the result of what that does. In terms of the millions of abstainers being a tidal wave of criticism against an option that no one is excited about, it doesn't seem to work. In terms of giving jingoist bigots the advantage, it's definitely a factor.

Am I opening a can of worms by suggesting that the sizeable mass of vote-abstainers could be more effective in changing the direction of things by voting third-party up- and down-ballot instead of withholding their vote?

Honestly, this is a pretty solid breakdown(even if I don't completely agree...)



Question that folks seriously need to get real with themselves about...

Exactly how many time to "Business As Usual..." Democrats have to do jack shit before you ask yourself if doing jack shit has always been the plan?

Charlie D wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:22 pm Am I opening a can of worms by suggesting that the sizeable mass of vote-abstainers could be more effective in changing the direction of things by voting third-party up- and down-ballot instead of withholding their vote?

Yes it is a can of worms, but it's totally true. Anyone who could activate the stay-at-homes would be a game changer. It would become a totally different conversation.

In fact maybe instead of some underhyped policy wonk chat about ranked choice voting (which would be great btw) that lasts about two weeks after a general election, we should all be trying to make a viral message to get disenfranchised voters to vote for literally any 3rd party. Although that sounds a bit like my rationale the time I voted for Ralph Nader, didn't quite get the steam up to make a difference that time.

Curry Pervert wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:29 pm I love a well reasoned rebuttal.

You get the response you earn mate. Toodle pip.