Re: Russian tubes (unavailable)

91
[*]
djimbe wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:32 pm
twelvepoint wrote: I am absolutely ignorant about this stuff, but one would think every aspect of that - which could be automated - would be better that 50 years ago.

Perhaps it’s the vacuum itself that’s inconsistent?

Like I said, I’m totally in the dark here, but there must be consistent points in modern tube manufacturing that are unreliable, and that would be a known thing among the 20 people in the world familiar with this stuff, and potentially addressable with some effort.
While I'm stone ignorant about the specifics of tube manufacture, I have a lot of experience with other automated manufacturing processes and you might be surprised what some of the downfalls of automation are. One of the biggest is the volume of production that isn't scrupulously watched over, leading to potential large runs of off spec product. Before super modern automation, someone was manning the various stages of the manufacturing process and adjusting (sometimes very subtly based on experience) the manufacturing process variables to keep from making piles of scrap product. Not a perfect example, but related to my business:

used to be when an automaker was making fenders (for example), they'd take a coil of steel and cut it into small pieces called blanks that would make the fenders. Someone had to tend the blanking press and they'd have eyeballs on the surface quality of the blank and the press parameters, and die lubricant and shit like that and could react right away if something went wrong. Then the blanks would go to another process to maybe punch some holes and someone tended that process to make sure the holes were clean and blanks were oriented right. Then the blanks would go to another press or two (or three) to get formed into a fender, with more people manning those processes and the output. At every stage there was opportunity to make adjustments to the process and get rid of "failed" parts. These days, coils get loaded up on a big multi-stage transfer press out the other end of which comes fenders. But what if there's a repeating defect in that coil, or a shear knife in your big press assembly has a nick in it and is leaving a ragged edge on the part? Nobody sees it until you have 12 tons of scrap fenders. You made them fenders fast and with limited human intervention due to a highly automated process, but what did it get you? Scrap. Off spec shit. And this happens in what we might consider modern advanced countries like the US and Germany and Japan. Now imagine what kind of attention to detail is being paid in less developed places like Russia and maybe you get some idea why the older processes could result in "better" quality than modern automated ones.
For precisely this reason I just bought two of these motherfuckers https://www.keyence.com/products/measur ... /lj-x8060/

Re: Russian tubes (unavailable)

94
djimbe wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:00 am
TylerDeadPine wrote:
For precisely this reason I just bought two of these motherfuckers https://www.keyence.com/products/measur ... /lj-x8060/
Keyence makes good shit. We use a lot of their stuff around here, especially for non-contact measurement down to the 1/10 of a millimeter
yeah! You talking the LZ point probes? you just have to spend the rest of the project dive/ducking the 20 sales people from other divisions that will start knocking down your door. Shout out to our apps guy Will though who rules.

This is awesome that you're also in automation - I've been working in manufacturing automation/industrial robotics for 15 years, I love talking about this stuff!

Re: Russian tubes (unavailable)

95
TylerDeadPine wrote:
This is awesome that you're also in automation - I've been working in manufacturing automation/industrial robotics for 15 years, I love talking about this stuff!
I'm not specifically in automation, I work in a super modern steel cold rolling mill that makes the most surface critical material for autos and appliances and caskets. But making that stuff reliably means a HUGE amount of automation. Managing 1600 tons of roll force at 140 meters into the mill (and about 570 mpm out) while retaining width to half a millimeter, gauge to 0.02 millimeter, and flatness to half a dozen i units simply can't be done by humans. Neither can critical surface inspection at 200-300 meters per minute. We use high speed imaging systems to catch defects, some not much bigger than 1mm in diameter. We move 45 ton coils with robotic cranes and battery operated robotic mules too, but that's more for keeping down coil handling marks, not because humans are incapable of moving a coil 100 feet without dropping it. The robots drop coils from time to time too. We stack them vertically in racks. 45 tons of steel makes a hell of a dent in the floor when you drop it from 20 or 30 feet. Automation is never perfect, and complacency about that gets you hurt or killed in my business.

Re: Russian tubes (unavailable)

96
djimbe wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:53 pm
TylerDeadPine wrote:
This is awesome that you're also in automation - I've been working in manufacturing automation/industrial robotics for 15 years, I love talking about this stuff!
I'm not specifically in automation, I work in a super modern steel cold rolling mill that makes the most surface critical material for autos and appliances and caskets. But making that stuff reliably means a HUGE amount of automation. Managing 1600 tons of roll force at 140 meters into the mill (and about 570 mpm out) while retaining width to half a millimeter, gauge to 0.02 millimeter, and flatness to half a dozen i units simply can't be done by humans. Neither can critical surface inspection at 200-300 meters per minute. We use high speed imaging systems to catch defects, some not much bigger than 1mm in diameter. We move 45 ton coils with robotic cranes and battery operated robotic mules too, but that's more for keeping down coil handling marks, not because humans are incapable of moving a coil 100 feet without dropping it. The robots drop coils from time to time too. We stack them vertically in racks. 45 tons of steel makes a hell of a dent in the floor when you drop it from 20 or 30 feet. Automation is never perfect, and complacency about that gets you hurt or killed in my business.
Amazing - you described what I hoped would have been going on in a place like that and it's a great image.

Re: Russian tubes (unavailable)

98
losthighway wrote:^ Also known as an 8 year old's dream field trip.
Gotta be at least 13 and MUST be escorted to be on the mill floor. It's a far cry from me being 8 and walking around my dad's factory or spending 2 whole days at Ford's River Rouge plant back in the early '70s.

But yeah, I've been doing this for 36 years now and I still sometimes just stop and look around a bit overwhelmed. It is a pretty cool place, dangerous though it may be

Re: Russian tubes (unavailable)

100
bishopdante wrote: The local environment will very likely test positive for every heavy metal known to man.
According to the fellow at Western Electric (interview posted up-thread) this isn't necessarily the case and apparently is a largely-debunked myth regarding production of vacuum tubes.

That being said, China doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to pollution, so yeah maybe? I guess I'm saying ecological disaster doesn't appear to be an automatically baked-in result of vacuum tube production, or at least it doesn't HAVE to be. But WE has been making those hi-fi tubes for a while in the US without issue (of course we can debate current strength and enforcement of EPA standards but that's a different subject I reckon).

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests