kokorodoko wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:06 pm

Geiginni wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:17 pm... the slackers that moved out here in droves in the 90s because it was cheap ...

... seemed to be living in a fantasy land ...

And now the slacker folks are upset at how their beloved refuge from responsibility and planning has changed. The Oregon Trail folks don't give as much care. Now they have growing businesses and a better employee pool, and they can charge more rent, and maybe kick out the 45+ year-old alcoholic tenant that can barely pay rent and lives in near chaos and get some better tenants than the losers they had to rent to in the 90s.

I take it you have some personal experience with these folks?

It's funny - I've seen you mention this type of person before - I myself am quite like that kind of slacker/failson, except I was never even a good slacker because I was worrying all the time about those things I was putting off, which feels really lame. The same lack of life experience without the zen-like life enjoyment.

I WAS that person through most of my 20s and early 30s. Most of my friends were also that person in that same time period. Most of us got our shit together in our 30s when it became apparent that this would not be a satisfying way to spend our 30s, 40s, 50s and so on. Some of us didn't. Most of those that didn't moved out west.

As much fun as it was, like you, there was always this nagging sense of missed opportunity and future woe.

Then I end up moving out here to find that much of the resentment here is from the slackers who found childhood's end with Portland becoming another major American city, instead of a refuge from the pressures of major cities.

Much of Nextdoor is people complaining about petty property crimes because they're still living in a town where people think you can leave your doors unlocked, cars unlocked, keys under doormats and in gloveboxes. For anyone who's lived in Chicago or any other major city, this seems absurd.

That's an amusing enough post upthread Geiginni, but it sort of seems to make an assumption or two I can't necessarily abide by.

One is that clumps of people shouldn't be able to live affordably in places like Portland, without being career-oriented. This line of thinking can get iffy if brought to its apparent "logical conclusion." I don't hang in dive bars (or bars in general), or keep up with many wastrels at this point--I do enjoy an IPA with dinner ever now and then--but should people who often want to do that be priced out or otherwise somehow excluded from these areas? Should everyone need to be goal-oriented or somehow adapted to the at-times-hellish norms of late capitalism in order to "get by"?

Without even invoking some kind of Patrick Bateman nightmare scenario, I think it's safe to say that not everyone who's a staunch "professional" is acting in others' best interest, even if they're self-sufficient and seem to function well. An easy example would be gentrifiers. Another could be crypto bros or people working in the more nefarious corners of the tech sector. Someone with more time than me could come up with more examples. I wouldn't know exactly how many of said people live in Portland, not having been there, but they must be there.

Conversely, those on the other end of the spectrum in terms of stature and career might not necessarily be bad people. Reasons why others might seem to be unmotivated to climb the ladder (whichever one it might be) can be many, and they're not blanketly dubious. If we zoom out a bit, and think of where America and the world itself stand at the moment, economically or in relation to issues like climate change, it might become increasingly absurd to assume that all of us should fall in line and be...enterprising. I happen to be somewhat, at least artistically or in relation to various interests, but is it some sort of crime or "sin" to not be?

DaveA wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:38 pm That's an amusing enough post upthread Geiginni, but it seems to make an assumption or two I can't necessarily abide by.

One is that clumps of people shouldn't be able to live affordably in places like Portland without being career-oriented. This line of thinking can get iffy if brought to its apparent "logical conclusion." I don't hang in dive bars (or bars in general), or keep up with many drunks at this point--I do enjoy an IPA with dinner ever now and then--but should people who often want to do that be priced out or otherwise somehow excluded from such areas? Should everyone need to be especially goal-oriented, somehow adapted to the at-times-hellish norms of late capitalism in order to "get by"?

I agree. It shouldn't necessarily be that way. An it certainly shouldn't be a requirement. But I also stopped living in the world of shoulds and shouldn'ts a few years ago. This is how it plays out in reality. My ability as an individual to bring about Happy Majickal Socialist Paradise has been limited. So here we are, existing in a reality of others making, and doing the best with the resources we have available.

Without even invoking some kind of Patrick Bateman nightmare scenario, I think it's safe to say that not everyone who's a staunch "professional" is acting in others' best interest, even if they bring home the bacon and seem to function well. An easy example would be gentrifiers. Another could be crypto bros or people working in the more nefarious corners of the tech sector. Or I dunno...some people in finance. Someone with more time than me could come up with more examples. I wouldn't know exactly how many of said people live in Portland, not having been there, but they must be there.

We're all hominid primates acting in our own best interests, being the opportunistic apes we are, that try to limit the risks to ourselves and progeny in being opportunistic. I don't think this behavior is limited to tech-bros and billionaire cunts. The meth-head living out of a burned out RV and stealing people packages and bicycles is doing the same thing - albeit with a much smaller global impact, but an impact nonetheless. The sooner people stop believing the judeo-christian-marxist nonsense about humans being pure lights of love and joy until corrupted by the big bad material world, and start thinking of social issues under the reality of our being organisms that have evolved ways of behaving that benefit and protect our self-interests and the interests of immediate family and tribe, the sooner we might start coming up with better ways of dealing with the shit in the world.

Conversely, those on the other end of the spectrum in terms of stature and career might not necessarily be bad people. Reasons why others might seem to be unmotivated to climb the ladder (whichever one it might be) can be many, and they're not blanketly dubious. If we zoom out a bit, and think of where America and the world itself stand at the moment, economically or in relation to issues like climate change, it might become increasingly absurd to assume that all of us should fall in line and be...enterprising. I happen to be, somewhat, at least artistically or in relation to intellectual interests, but is it some sort of crime or "sin" to not be? Granted this isn't a philosophy I live by, but Vonnegut's quote that "we are here on Earth to fart around" isn't that objectionable.

I don't disagree. But, farting around isn't necessarily contributing to long-term success in addressing the real issues like climate change or wealth inequity either. Those slackers in my sphere that hang out in bars all the time also drive gas guzzlers, eat fast food, run the A/C full blast in the summer and consume throwaway junk all the time. I don't see living one way or the other as being any more laudable than the other if the sum impact on the world is really no different.

Edited my previous post a bit, to try to clarify the language.

Geiginni wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:15 pm...farting around isn't necessarily contributing to long-term success in addressing the real issues like climate change or wealth inequity either.

No, it most certainly isn't, nor is it addressing (in America) "the gun problem," abortion rights, or numerous other issues of a pressing nature. But one has to wonder what sort of positive impact someone without much conscientiousness or political agency could have on these things. It'd seem these are the traits of the people you were describing.

If Fred Gwynne’s character in Pet Sematary lives in Portland Oregon does he have zero gauge earrings and run a gastropub? “Sometimes dead is better”

Geiginni wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:17 pm The exact same people who in the early 2000s were inviting those more responsible friends from back east to come visit with "Isn't this awesome? When are you gonna move out here? It'd be so much fun to have you around? What do you mean you'd need to figure out your career and job? and a house? and family? Just pack up and move!"

My sixth ex had this attitude.

I had, for a time, considered moving to PDX after evaluating my life in MPLS, which wasn't going so great and yada yada yada reasons.

She went to Portland once or twice a year, flying stand-by, crashing with friends; she loved it there.

ANYway, I let it slip to her that I'd been thinking about moving to PDX; this was only a couple months into our "hanging out", not a full blown relationship yet. The conversation gets out of hand and now she's planning our move, thinking out loud about what classes she was going to enroll in and needling me about getting a moving truck and asking me when I was going to finally start packing for a couple weeks.

At one point, I had to stop her, very bluntly: "Look, I don't have a job there and I'm not moving there without one. If you want to do this, one or both of us needs to get a job there first because I'm not going into poverty again, I've done my starving."

She looked like she'd been scolded and the subject never came up again, though, funnily enough, that links this thread to the other City-Dome I started: She'd planned one of her PDX trips (without me, natch) but her friend who she usually crashed with changed plans last minute and the stand-by opening kept getting pushed back and yada yada yada so she canceled her plans and decided to use her vacation money to take me on an overnight to Duluth where she got day-blitzed at the Fitger's.

"White flight" to the suburbs made American cities affordable for artists, musicians, and general fuck-ups. That tide has turned toward urban gentrification, and rich whitey wants his celebrity chef restaurant.

And as of my partner's bff's wedding this weekend, we now have a standing invitation to the Maine Portland.
Since we'd have to fly into Boston (that's what I'm told), I asked if we could coordinate the trip to catch a DET @ BOS game.

Charlie D wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:47 am And as of my partner's bff's wedding this weekend, we now have a standing invitation to the Maine Portland.
Since we'd have to fly into Boston (that's what I'm told), I asked if we could coordinate the trip to catch a DET @ BOS game.

You could also fly into Manchester, NH, but Logan would probably be cheaper.

I'm kind of looking forward to it! I've only been over the coast, never to it.