llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:41 pm the preamp section is where it’s at for me.

This brings up something I've been curious about for a while and I'll have to read up on this. I know I see tons and tons of EP Boosters on pedal boards, I guess I'm not sure I understand what makes this so great and special as a pre, and if it is, are some amp mfgs using this for their amp's pre- stage instead of whatever is considered "normal?"

And couldn't you save hundreds of bucks and just get the EP booster? or is it not the same deal?

twelvepoint wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:21 pm I'm not entirely sold on this, but I'd like a portable digital piano. Basic weighted keys are fine and I don't care about "virtual-hammer, customizable feel" stuff. Similarly, I'd be ok with sampling and voice tech from the early aughts. 76 keys is probably ok but all things being equal I'd prefer 88. Internal speakers are a big plus, as I don't want to deal with another amp. I really want MIDI out to use with hardware and soft synths.

I feel like with this wish list I'd be way better off looking at something older, but I'm open to new stuff as well.

Ok, so this is a MIDI controller, and it doesn't have internal speakers, but you can get an M Audio Keystation 88 for like a hundred bucks. I got one a while back to control a little synth module and it works great.

Garth wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:49 pm

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:41 pm the preamp section is where it’s at for me.

This brings up something I've been curious about for a while and I'll have to read up on this. I know I see tons and tons of EP Boosters on pedal boards, I guess I'm not sure I understand what makes this so great and special as a pre, and if it is, are some amp mfgs using this for their amp's pre- stage instead of whatever is considered "normal?"

And couldn't you save hundreds of bucks and just get the EP booster? or is it not the same deal?

Its really just a boost that people like the sound of, and yes absolutely you could just use a pedalized version of it without needing the tape delay parts (though those are cool too).

Tom Wanderer wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:20 am

twelvepoint wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:21 pm I'm not entirely sold on this, but I'd like a portable digital piano. Basic weighted keys are fine and I don't care about "virtual-hammer, customizable feel" stuff. Similarly, I'd be ok with sampling and voice tech from the early aughts. 76 keys is probably ok but all things being equal I'd prefer 88. Internal speakers are a big plus, as I don't want to deal with another amp. I really want MIDI out to use with hardware and soft synths.

I feel like with this wish list I'd be way better off looking at something older, but I'm open to new stuff as well.

Ok, so this is a MIDI controller, and it doesn't have internal speakers, but you can get an M Audio Keystation 88 for like a hundred bucks. I got one a while back to control a little synth module and it works great.

Thank you.

This is likely a shared thing with my family, so having one button that you can hit and make piano sounds is a big plus. The MIDI aspect is something I'd like, though. This whole contemporary market is weird because weighted keyboards with onboard sounds and speakers are a sub-$400 price point, but with MIDI out it jumps closer to $1000. There must be a slew of older keyboards out there that fit the bill, but I'd like something that's clean and local.

The best option might be to get a controller and a non-MIDI keyboard, but it seems wasteful.

Dr Tony Balls wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:59 am

Garth wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:49 pm

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:41 pm the preamp section is where it’s at for me.

This brings up something I've been curious about for a while and I'll have to read up on this. I know I see tons and tons of EP Boosters on pedal boards, I guess I'm not sure I understand what makes this so great and special as a pre, and if it is, are some amp mfgs using this for their amp's pre- stage instead of whatever is considered "normal?"

And couldn't you save hundreds of bucks and just get the EP booster? or is it not the same deal?

Its really just a boost that people like the sound of, and yes absolutely you could just use a pedalized version of it without needing the tape delay parts (though those are cool too).

Tom Verlaine often used the Echoplex without a tape.

For Garth’s question, why not just get an EP booster. It's just like anything. Spring reverb from a Fender amp vs a pedal. A Les Paul through a Marshall vs a Jaguar and a Twin with a pedal that makes it sound like a Les Paul through a Marshall. Acoustic drums vs a drum sample pack. Rhodes vs Nord. You just draw the line where you want on what you want basically. I don’t really think a regular solid state pedal quite sounds like a tube preamp and vice versa, even if it gets close. The emulation creates a new thing but not necessarily the same thing. Same with the delay side.

I’ve owned a Strymon unit and I don’t really consider it to be the same thing at all, but its obviously meant to give you a bunch of fiddly options that you don’t have on the original - you just have the tubes and tape doing all the work. Strymon is def missing the preamp side in a big way. There was a little boost but not much and it didn’t seem to be very eq’d, and I am 100% that was their intention.

I bought my TTE a long time ago for $600 used or something similar and it seems like a steal now if you consider that $250/$300 for a delay and the same for an overdrive isn’t necessarily that crazy in the current market. I’ve bought a couple tapes for it over the years but I stopped having problems with it when I took it out of my old practice space, which was like one step above a garage as far as climate control in Texas goes.

TO BE FAIR...



Those EP preamp pedals are aimed at reproducing the preamp from the solid state Echoplex, which is obviously very different from the tube version. And contrary to a lot of the examples that were given (spring reverb vs a pedal, for example), one can make a direct clone of the EP-3 preamp in pedal form. Comparing the tube to the solid state version is apples and oranges.

One could also make a true pedal version of the tube preamp, it'd just need to be a bigger.

twelvepoint wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:06 am

Tom Wanderer wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:20 am

twelvepoint wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:21 pm I'm not entirely sold on this, but I'd like a portable digital piano. Basic weighted keys are fine and I don't care about "virtual-hammer, customizable feel" stuff. Similarly, I'd be ok with sampling and voice tech from the early aughts. 76 keys is probably ok but all things being equal I'd prefer 88. Internal speakers are a big plus, as I don't want to deal with another amp. I really want MIDI out to use with hardware and soft synths.

I feel like with this wish list I'd be way better off looking at something older, but I'm open to new stuff as well.

Ok, so this is a MIDI controller, and it doesn't have internal speakers, but you can get an M Audio Keystation 88 for like a hundred bucks. I got one a while back to control a little synth module and it works great.

Thank you.

This is likely a shared thing with my family, so having one button that you can hit and make piano sounds is a big plus. The MIDI aspect is something I'd like, though. This whole contemporary market is weird because weighted keyboards with onboard sounds and speakers are a sub-$400 price point, but with MIDI out it jumps closer to $1000. There must be a slew of older keyboards out there that fit the bill, but I'd like something that's clean and local.

The best option might be to get a controller and a non-MIDI keyboard, but it seems wasteful.

Seems like there should be a LOT of options in this area for cheap-as-chips. I found a Korg SP-200 on reverb for $300 that I believe would meet your requirements if you don't mind something 20 years old. I've always thought Korg's pianos sound pretty decent. There were some pretty decent Yamaha models when I worked at [big box store redacted] 15 some years ago that also had midi that are probably also very affordable now. New market, looks like there is an Alesis model (the Recital) that might fit the bill but...it's Alesis so ymmv w/ goodness & also the midi is via USB so you'd need an adapter.

IMO, there really haven't been drastic improvements to sampling sound and controllers for like 20 years honestly. At least not in a working-person's price range anyway. I have a few bottom-barrel romplers from the 90s that sound pretty good I think. *shrug

Garth wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:56 am Seems like there should be a LOT of options in this area for cheap-as-chips. I found a Korg SP-200 on reverb for $300 that I believe would meet your requirements if you don't mind something 20 years old. I've always thought Korg's pianos sound pretty decent. There were some pretty decent Yamaha models when I worked at [big box store redacted] 15 some years ago that also had midi that are probably also very affordable now. New market, looks like there is an Alesis model (the Recital) that might fit the bill but...it's Alesis so ymmv w/ goodness & also the midi is via USB so you'd need an adapter.

IMO, there really haven't been drastic improvements to sampling sound and controllers for like 20 years honestly. At least not in a working-person's price range anyway. I have a few bottom-barrel romplers from the 90s that sound pretty good I think. *shrug

Thanks for that! A question: with the USB MIDI, am I correct that the square connector (like the Alesis Recital) means it has to connect to a host, and couldn't, like connect directly to my Behringer Model D (which also has the square USB connector)? It's probably meant to connect to a computer, which would be the host?

Yeah, you'd need an external standalone host box. I use one with my little Yamaha Reface so I can plug a cheap full-size controller into it for stage use.

The Alesis Recitals are actually pretty decent. My kids have one that they're learning on and it feels pretty good for a sub-$300 piano.

twelvepoint wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:36 am

Garth wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:56 am Seems like there should be a LOT of options in this area for cheap-as-chips. I found a Korg SP-200

I have been using a Korg SP100 for the last 20 years. None of the LEDs work, but it makes zero difference as I only use it for a weighted controller. Maybe I'm just used to it, but it feels a lot more like a real piano than any other weighted piano controller I've ever played.