Bernardo wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:02 pm Didn't The Misfits become comparable to Kiss only after they "re-formed"? I get the sense their original run was something completely different, while Kiss were always deliberate about how cynical they were from the get-go.

I would say during that before their commercial success (so pre-Alive Kiss and Danzig era Misfits) neither band was particularly cynical (I'd say Gene and Jerry were both informed by the leaner years when they had the opportunity to reap their respective harvests) but all the points I made about how DUMB they were is applicable throughout their career.

To be fair to the Misfits, they came up during an era that was particularly inhospitable to rock, so their initial run never took off commercially (though I'm sure Danzig's personality was a serious obsticle to getting a major deal), but if you look at WHAT they did and HOW they did it, it's musically primitive gimmick rock w/ a strong marketing image and merch campaign. Just like Kiss.

And again - for fairness: there's a spark of creativity w/ Danzig's gimmick that informed a sub-genre later on (horror punk). But you know what? Venomously obsessing over the monster mash cast is pretty lame. I used to think Danzig was a little more self aware about how ridiculous the Misfits were, but he's as 100% serious in the 'Fits as he would be in Samhain or his solo work. That's dumb.

atomjackfuser wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:03 pm Limp Bizkit

No, elevated by a great rhythm section and innovative guitarist; though Durst and Simmons have a lot in common.

Many, many examples of Nu Metal / Butt Rock DUMB: Coal Chamber, Godsmack, Puddle of Mudd, Drowning Pool, Nickleback, Static X, Rob Zombie, etc etc...

DrAwkward wrote: ICP? Or are they a level of dumb beyond KISS?

ICP are there, though Kid Rock is worse.

I’d say ICP is in the ”ICP level dumb” category, which contains only ICP.

White/Rob Zombie definitely reaches those depths (YEAH...)

jeff fox wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:56 pm NYHC. All of it. 100%

Can confirm.

Krev wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:00 am White/Rob Zombie definitely reaches those depths (YEAH...)

Nope, the two White Zombie records w/ J. on guit are awesome (despite Rob). Total repurpose of the mid-tempo Slayer riffs into a new, kinetic form. Rob's solo stuff is the worst of the worst, though. Sub-Manson even. What a shill.

jeff fox wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:56 pm NYHC. All of it. 100%

5 NYHC Records that are great:

Cro-Mags: Age of Quarrel (Absolute ground zero for tough-guy man-theatrics via the rock form, game-changing record: Bad Brains inspired but with a real HEAVY riffs, a new form of musical aggression that gains transcendental power when coupled w/ the religious fervour of the Kali Yuga inspired lyrics (that I doubt they REALLY understood at age 16 or whatever, but I can't question the results). They have been done dirty by Profile records and denied any chance of even a fraction of the legacy they deserve, but I would easily group AoQ w/ the best of best heavy rock. I love Best Wishes just as much too.)

Sick of It All: Just Look Around (Takes the secular moral outrage vibe from Minor Threat, adds more rock-riffs that are sculpted to maximum effect by Armand's awesome drumming - max stomp energy vibes on 'What's Going On'.)

Madball: Set It Off (Groove and dynamics masterclass between Henderson and Shepler who also clocked in an awesome performance on AF's overlooked One Voice record.)

Merauder: Master Killer (See previous post)

Gorilla Biscuits: Start Today (One of the few bands to square melodic punk (Buzzcocks, Undertones, etc) w/ hardcore speed energy. Great vibes, strong melodic and memorable hooks.)

Shit, man...Sheer Terror's "Just Can't Hate Enough" (along with AoQ) is the crowning achievement of that scene. Bonus points for Paul Bearer being hardcore's greatest stand-up.

What is special about Kiss is that it's obviously for children, and obviously a joke, and obviously shit, but this is not obvious to Gene Simmons. There's something similar with the Misfits, I guess, but I wouldn't put it on the same level. Also, some Misfits songs are pretty good! Not just a riff here and there like Kiss, but whole songs, even whole albums.

NYHC is dumb, probably dumber, but it's dumb in a different way. Again, some of it is good.

Alice Cooper Group is good. I'll give you that you can at least defend a couple albums after that, although I don't think they're much to write home about. Alice Cooper is an asshole like Gene Simmons, and hasn't done anything that's even debatable as to whether it's not shit for decades, but there's still no comparison.

Motorhead and the Ramones are conceptually simple, and the Ramones went downhill fast, but there's absolutely no reason to drag them into this.

Has anyone mentioned Motley Crue yet? I think this is an oversight, if not.

Oh, and Pantera are dumb, and are bad, but they lack that element of being something clearly silly and only being like, 2% in on the joke. They also lack the overt commercialism.

Krev wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:34 pm Shit, man...Sheer Terror's "Just Can't Hate Enough" (along with AoQ) is the crowning achievement of that scene. Bonus points for Paul Bearer being hardcore's greatest stand-up.

Never clicked w/ me. Bit like Winter or Dream Death where the Celtic Frost worship was a bit too close to the source material. Maybe some day.