Re: Airwindows plugins

71
seby wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 5:34 am
prowler wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:37 am chris gets personal in this one
This was heavy. Chris is such a solid person.
Overdue in replying here—I read the boards at work but in intervals too short for me to concentrate on posting, and then I come home and don't really go on the computer to unwind. But yeah Chris seems like a real one on every level. I've gleaned bits of his story from old posts, but it's beautiful and inspiring to see him speak so directly about it in this context.

A small cool thing about my job is that I've had reason to talk up Airwindows stuff not only with classical engineers and mastering engineers (including a Juno winner I work with), but with unhoused/semi-housed people looking to start making music as affordably as possible.

Anyway my most recent Airwindows thought is that Console0 goes crazy. I happen to have a standalone single on my desk right now and mixing it with Console0 as an experiment and damn. I am cheating on a few input channels by using Tube as a nonlinear boost—it invalidates the whole point of the bit shift thing, but in some instances it's worth it—but there are many channels where I'm not doing that, and I am enjoying the natural clarity and sonority I'm getting as a result.
active things: Belonging, These Estates, Spruce Island

Re: Airwindows plugins

72
Mason wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:12 am
seby wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 5:34 am
prowler wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:37 am chris gets personal in this one
This was heavy. Chris is such a solid person.
Overdue in replying here—I read the boards at work but in intervals too short for me to concentrate on posting, and then I come home and don't really go on the computer to unwind. But yeah Chris seems like a real one on every level. I've gleaned bits of his story from old posts, but it's beautiful and inspiring to see him speak so directly about it in this context.

A small cool thing about my job is that I've had reason to talk up Airwindows stuff not only with classical engineers and mastering engineers (including a Juno winner I work with), but with unhoused/semi-housed people looking to start making music as affordably as possible.

Anyway my most recent Airwindows thought is that Console0 goes crazy. I happen to have a standalone single on my desk right now and mixing it with Console0 as an experiment and damn. I am cheating on a few input channels by using Tube as a nonlinear boost—it invalidates the whole point of the bit shift thing, but in some instances it's worth it—but there are many channels where I'm not doing that, and I am enjoying the natural clarity and sonority I'm getting as a result.
Glad to hear this!
"lol, listen to op 'music' and you'll understand"....

https://sebastiansequoiah-grayson.bandcamp.com/
https://oblier.bandcamp.com/releases
https://youtube.com/user/sebbityseb

Re: Airwindows plugins

75
penningtron wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 12:55 pm Has anyone had issues getting AW plugins to work on recent MacOSs (Monterey 12.7 here). It doesn't recognize the source which is fine, but I override that in the Security settings and it still won't recognize it while scanning in Reaper.
That’s a bummer. Works fine for me in ableton. Have you searched around the gearspace forum? I take it you have tried restarting your machine - this used to be required! If you get really stuck Chris us pretty fast with replying to PMs on GS.

I hope this works out soon!
"lol, listen to op 'music' and you'll understand"....

https://sebastiansequoiah-grayson.bandcamp.com/
https://oblier.bandcamp.com/releases
https://youtube.com/user/sebbityseb

Re: Airwindows plugins

76
Mason wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:18 am PaulWide, we'll worry about the name later, is a dither plugin. You know you should be applying dither whenever you're reducing wordlength, right? Which includes every time you render an output file, even a 24-bit one? and also every time you send something OTB to an outboard effect?? Motherfuijcker???
For real that is literally true though. All the DAW calculations are being done at a greater wordlength, so if dither is absent even at 24 bits you get truncation distortion. (For sending things to outboard effects I would use something like TapeDither instead). But for real, if you take nothing else away from this post, get a dither plugin and leave it as the last thing on your master. Obviously not critical when you are sending preview mp3s to the homies but technically in that case you'd dither to 16 bits (and indeed 16-bit is usually the one place people think of dither). And when you are sending the files to your mastering engineer you'd slide it to 24 bits. Word!

Relevant to that and possibly decent as a closing note: a lowkey entertaining and illuminating Airwindows plugin is Ditherbox, a now-incomplete collection of his dithers that you can scroll back and forth through. It really helped me appreciate these ultra-ultra-minute things AW specializes in getting right. Especially as someone who ignored all his dithering stuff at first because it was boring/seemed too golden-ears for me. It's not like you can hear a song in the wild and correctly guess what type of dither was applied. But I've loved playing with Ditherbox because it really is like "if this is so microscopic and golden-ears and who-cares, then why am I able to notice the differences and how am I developing preferences?" And indeed I've figured out I prefer, unfortunately not Chris' non-dither reducers like NJAD/Dark, but the "Paul" (as in Frindle) family which I think is PaulDither, DoublePaul, and PaulWide. Of course, there is obviously still a big "who cares" element in terms of every other part of the process being more important, which is why I've settled on PaulWide and am kind of not going to think dither stuff for the rest of my life ideally.

Hope this helps someone!
Damn my brain is already hurting this morning.

I record in Reaper 96/24. I just record, play, and do basic edits there. Everything in Reaper is pretty much always at unity gain except for the odd track automation. It goes out to a 16 i/o into a 32 channel live sound board, where I patch in outboard, monitor, and balance. Sometimes I insert outboard effects thru Reaper so I can free up gear. The master out of the board goes back into the i/o and Reaper for rough mixes. Lots of cables.

Do I need to care about dithering?

Re: Airwindows plugins

77
Technically yeah, though all that amounts to is leaving a dither plugin as the last thing on the master bus.
edit: sorry, cruised through that too quickly -- also when you're sending OTB to hardware yeah. So if you're sending stuff out to an IRL spring reverb then the reverb send should have a dither as its last thing. For those littler instances (not the final stereo print of everything) I use TapeDither.
active things: Belonging, These Estates, Spruce Island

Re: Airwindows plugins

78
llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:16 am
Mason wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:18 am PaulWide, we'll worry about the name later, is a dither plugin. You know you should be applying dither whenever you're reducing wordlength, right? Which includes every time you render an output file, even a 24-bit one? and also every time you send something OTB to an outboard effect?? Motherfuijcker???
For real that is literally true though. All the DAW calculations are being done at a greater wordlength, so if dither is absent even at 24 bits you get truncation distortion. (For sending things to outboard effects I would use something like TapeDither instead). But for real, if you take nothing else away from this post, get a dither plugin and leave it as the last thing on your master. Obviously not critical when you are sending preview mp3s to the homies but technically in that case you'd dither to 16 bits (and indeed 16-bit is usually the one place people think of dither). And when you are sending the files to your mastering engineer you'd slide it to 24 bits. Word!

Relevant to that and possibly decent as a closing note: a lowkey entertaining and illuminating Airwindows plugin is Ditherbox, a now-incomplete collection of his dithers that you can scroll back and forth through. It really helped me appreciate these ultra-ultra-minute things AW specializes in getting right. Especially as someone who ignored all his dithering stuff at first because it was boring/seemed too golden-ears for me. It's not like you can hear a song in the wild and correctly guess what type of dither was applied. But I've loved playing with Ditherbox because it really is like "if this is so microscopic and golden-ears and who-cares, then why am I able to notice the differences and how am I developing preferences?" And indeed I've figured out I prefer, unfortunately not Chris' non-dither reducers like NJAD/Dark, but the "Paul" (as in Frindle) family which I think is PaulDither, DoublePaul, and PaulWide. Of course, there is obviously still a big "who cares" element in terms of every other part of the process being more important, which is why I've settled on PaulWide and am kind of not going to think dither stuff for the rest of my life ideally.

Hope this helps someone!
Damn my brain is already hurting this morning.

I record in Reaper 96/24. I just record, play, and do basic edits there. Everything in Reaper is pretty much always at unity gain except for the odd track automation. It goes out to a 16 i/o into a 32 channel live sound board, where I patch in outboard, monitor, and balance. Sometimes I insert outboard effects thru Reaper so I can free up gear. The master out of the board goes back into the i/o and Reaper for rough mixes. Lots of cables.

Do I need to care about dithering?
Your DAW is going to have its own internal dithering turned on by default. So, you can safely never think about it again.

If you simply insert an airwindows dither (or any other plugin-based dither) as the final plugin on any exported track - like say the master track when you are exporting it as a wav - then you will be dithering twice! This is probably not great. In this case you would want to turn off your DAW's dither so that the plugin dither is the only dither.

Exception - when you are sending out from a track or tracks from your DAW to external hardware, your DAW will most likely not dither the sends. You might need to check with the DAW you are using, or whether or not your DAC (in your interface) has a dither turned on for just these purposes. If nothing is dithered on the sends automatically, then you might want to add a dither plugin as the final insert on the sent track or tracks before they are sent. There is a lot of disagreement as to whether this is necessary however. My top tip - try both and see what you like the most.

One of my research students is writing her thesis on dithering, and we had a very fun time in her last presentation. She converted a 24/96 wav down to 16/44.1 with no dithering, and the truncation distortion was obvious. Then, she re-exported the downsampled 16/44.1 file with a variety of different dithers, and we (the examination panel) sat there listening to all of them. They were all airwindows dithers, and she must have had seven of them at least, including Dark, NJAD, and so on. The unanimous fave? Paul Dither!

Track was Ride Across the River by Dire Straits.

Make of this what you will : )

Said student is writing her own dithers because she has super powers
"lol, listen to op 'music' and you'll understand"....

https://sebastiansequoiah-grayson.bandcamp.com/
https://oblier.bandcamp.com/releases
https://youtube.com/user/sebbityseb

Re: Airwindows plugins

79
I don't know that DAWs automatically dither the stereo bus output during playback, or during a random OTB send.
There is a box in Reaper I can checkmark about dither/noise-shape the master, but that's only for final 24-bit render so what about the other times, plus it's kind of a plain dither. PaulDIther/PaulWide rock so I use those for output.

Dark and NJAD are great. I think I accidentally sounded dismissive of these earlier in the thread, but I'm just permanently hung up on how nice the Paul ones sound.

A second thing, and my memory is a bit incomplete on this, but I believe dither is one of those processes that can be applied a few times without any real harm. Which is I think why Chris has built dithers into some of his "framing" things like certain Console revs, even when he also suggests ending your stereo bus with, say, Monitoring in one of the output/dither modes. And I don't think sending a mastering engineer a dithered 24-bit file causes problems when the ME brings it down to 16-bit with a different style of dither. I wish I could be more precise or confident on the why. But I remember researching and concluding this!

Although, all this said, I've sent mastering engineers undithered 32-bit WAVs (ITB mixes) the last couple times and that's worked out very well. But for any other part of the process I apply dither as outlined because I will not be Caught Lacking in this regard.
active things: Belonging, These Estates, Spruce Island

Re: Airwindows plugins

80
I haven't added a dither plugin to anything since about 2007 and haven't ever heard any noticeable aliasing or any other artifacts bouncing from 24bit to 16 or flac, or MP3 or anything else. It may be there, but I cant hear it. I have only ever heard weird issues back in the day when 12 bit was occasionally a thing you would run across or reverb tails in a 16 bit record fading into digital silence back when converters were kinda crap. Haven't thought about it in over a decade. Maybe the DAW IS just doing it four you now... which would make sense. What's the relationship between 24bit files being recorded and played out of a 32bit float or 64 bit work environment? No one knows how computers work and we will probably never know. It's a tale as sad as feeding a cat.
Was Japmn.

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