norm macdonald wrote:things i gave up for lent:
- power lifting
- lifting of any kind
- dressing up like an incubus
- beating my cat
- spending thousands of dollars trying to methodically seduce andy richter's wife
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
32Versus all of the child molestation that someone swept under the rug...InMySoul77 wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:31 pmMethodism is probably the closest to Catholicism out of those listed above. I have an admiration for John Wesley. He was a cool guy. Methodists did mostly oppose American slavery. The United Methodist Church split recently over LGBT issues. Now there's something called the Global Methodist Church as well.losthighway wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:17 pm If one of my kids started hanging around a church, I'd probably feel better if it were Methodist, or Episcopalian, or United, or even Lutheran over Catholic. I'd definitely take Catholic over lots of the nutsos listed above.
All of this is dependent on the mind of the person preaching.
The Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God (white Pentecostal church) were originally formed (at least in part) to maintain white supremacy. In the 1700s lots of those folks would have fought against teaching black slaves to read. Those are your hotbeds of Trump voters. That's where we get the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and suchlike.
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
33No, not "versus":numberthirty wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 6:28 pmVersus all of the child molestation that someone swept under the rug...InMySoul77 wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:31 pmMethodism is probably the closest to Catholicism out of those listed above. I have an admiration for John Wesley. He was a cool guy. Methodists did mostly oppose American slavery. The United Methodist Church split recently over LGBT issues. Now there's something called the Global Methodist Church as well.losthighway wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:17 pm If one of my kids started hanging around a church, I'd probably feel better if it were Methodist, or Episcopalian, or United, or even Lutheran over Catholic. I'd definitely take Catholic over lots of the nutsos listed above.
All of this is dependent on the mind of the person preaching.
The Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God (white Pentecostal church) were originally formed (at least in part) to maintain white supremacy. In the 1700s lots of those folks would have fought against teaching black slaves to read. Those are your hotbeds of Trump voters. That's where we get the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and suchlike.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/ ... e-sbc.html
The fact is that sex abuse takes place in all situations where adults are around kids. The Boy Scouts. Schools. Little Leagues.
In no way shape or form am I defending the RCCs historical handling of sex abuse. Like I said in another thread, it will forever be a stain on the church. Those priests are pure evil. But this stuff happens in Protestant churches too.
Last edited by InMySoul77 on Mon Nov 13, 2023 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
35Especially when you figure in their part in abuse within The Boy Scouts of America.
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
36Boy Scouts, Mormons, Catholic clergy, Hollywood producers, SBC Pastors - basically, sexual predators will be drawn to positions of unquestionable authority and respect as an open conduit for their transgressions and our society has been really bad at checks and balances for organizations that are essentially constructed to not have any checks and balances on power.
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
37Roman Catholic priests should no longer think that they have an open conduit, or that there are no checks and balances:Geiginni wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:51 pm Boy Scouts, Mormons, Catholic clergy, Hollywood producers, SBC Pastors - basically, sexual predators will be drawn to positions of unquestionable authority and respect as an open conduit for their transgressions and our society has been really bad at checks and balances for organizations that are essentially constructed to not have any checks and balances on power.
https://apnews.com/article/pope-francis ... 1c017b79e0
While not ideal, Benedict XVI's legacy includes cracking down on abusers at an unprecedented level. One reason he's my favorite pope.
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
38I'm reading a book titled The Christian Left by an evangelical author named Lucas Miles. He's a conservative and is quite intelligent. He argues that "Christian leftism" is an oxymoron.
Protestants tend to take an "either or" approach to philosophy while Catholicism tends to take a "both and" approach. The word catholic means "universal," and in the Catholic church we have both leftists and conservatives, liberals and traditionalists. It's a true melting pot. Both AOC and Pat Buchanan are part of this big tent. Both the traditionalist Pius X and the more forward thinking Benedict XVI have led the church.
Catholicism sees it as a disgrace that there should be a split between white churches and black churches. People wonder, why do black evangelicals vote Democrat while white evangelicals vote Republican? Democrats tend to focus on civil rights, compassion and social justice, while Republicans focus on personal responsibility and maintaining existing hierarchies and traditional values (sometimes called Crotch Christianity). Miles falls into this trap. He obsesses about LGBT, porn and abortion while ignoring social justice almost completely.
Catholicism truly transcends this divide between Red and Blue. Because we don't place "deeds over creeds," but nor do we place "creeds over deeds" like many Protestants do. Evangelicals call Catholicism a works-based religion, whereas they often pride themselves on being saved by faith alone. That's why IMO you often see Republicans not caring whether they make the world a better place, through combating injustices like police violence, low wages, etc. They've figured it out for themselves and their families already, so why bother?
Leftist Christians sometimes tend to place deeds over creeds, rejecting a firm scriptural basis for their worldview, especially when it's inconvenient. Sometimes this approach is called the Social Justice Gospel. It's exemplified by this CNN article (note it doesn't even mention the Catholic church):
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/us/socia ... index.html
From the article: "The Social Gospel turned religion into a weapon for economic and political reform. Its message: saving people from slums was just as important as saving them from hell." Note the either/or. It's not appropriate to use religion solely as a vehicle for change. But nor is it impossible to learn church doctrine and use that as a bedrock for social activism. The thing is, Catholics aren't supposed to pick and choose which doctrines we like and which ones we don't. All church doctrine reflects God's truth. I like William Barber. It seems like his heart is in the right place. But he said, "People want to talk a lot about what the Bible says very little about, and talk hardly at all about what the Bible says a lot about." (Paraphrasing). That's a false dichotomy and it's a view that undermines scriptural infallibility on moral issues. It's false teaching.
Transcending this divide means seeing truth as holistic and multifaceted in its complexity, not reducible to sound bites taken out of context. From Richard McBrien's book Catholicism:
"XXIII. Catholicism is characterized, therefore, by a both/and rather than an either/or approach. It is not nature or grace, but graced nature; not reason or faith, but reason illumined by faith; not law or Gospel, but law inspired by the Gospel; not Scripture or tradition, but normative tradition within Scripture; not faith or works, but faith issuing in works and works as expressions of faith; not authority or freedom, but authority through freedom."
Biden is prolife in respect to guns, access to health care and withdrawing from Afghanistan. Trump is prolife with respect to abortion but little else. Was he prolife when he threatened to shoot George Floyd protesters, or when his actions led to deaths on January 6th? People caught in these blinkered views think Jesus necessarily votes Red or Blue. I happen to think he probably leans Blue at the moment, and Christians should obviously vote for Biden. But Democrats certainly don't align perfectly with Catholic doctrine either.
Anyway it's a thought provoking book, and an interesting window into how intelligent evangelical conservatives can justify supporting Trump.
Protestants tend to take an "either or" approach to philosophy while Catholicism tends to take a "both and" approach. The word catholic means "universal," and in the Catholic church we have both leftists and conservatives, liberals and traditionalists. It's a true melting pot. Both AOC and Pat Buchanan are part of this big tent. Both the traditionalist Pius X and the more forward thinking Benedict XVI have led the church.
Catholicism sees it as a disgrace that there should be a split between white churches and black churches. People wonder, why do black evangelicals vote Democrat while white evangelicals vote Republican? Democrats tend to focus on civil rights, compassion and social justice, while Republicans focus on personal responsibility and maintaining existing hierarchies and traditional values (sometimes called Crotch Christianity). Miles falls into this trap. He obsesses about LGBT, porn and abortion while ignoring social justice almost completely.
Catholicism truly transcends this divide between Red and Blue. Because we don't place "deeds over creeds," but nor do we place "creeds over deeds" like many Protestants do. Evangelicals call Catholicism a works-based religion, whereas they often pride themselves on being saved by faith alone. That's why IMO you often see Republicans not caring whether they make the world a better place, through combating injustices like police violence, low wages, etc. They've figured it out for themselves and their families already, so why bother?
Leftist Christians sometimes tend to place deeds over creeds, rejecting a firm scriptural basis for their worldview, especially when it's inconvenient. Sometimes this approach is called the Social Justice Gospel. It's exemplified by this CNN article (note it doesn't even mention the Catholic church):
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/us/socia ... index.html
From the article: "The Social Gospel turned religion into a weapon for economic and political reform. Its message: saving people from slums was just as important as saving them from hell." Note the either/or. It's not appropriate to use religion solely as a vehicle for change. But nor is it impossible to learn church doctrine and use that as a bedrock for social activism. The thing is, Catholics aren't supposed to pick and choose which doctrines we like and which ones we don't. All church doctrine reflects God's truth. I like William Barber. It seems like his heart is in the right place. But he said, "People want to talk a lot about what the Bible says very little about, and talk hardly at all about what the Bible says a lot about." (Paraphrasing). That's a false dichotomy and it's a view that undermines scriptural infallibility on moral issues. It's false teaching.
Transcending this divide means seeing truth as holistic and multifaceted in its complexity, not reducible to sound bites taken out of context. From Richard McBrien's book Catholicism:
"XXIII. Catholicism is characterized, therefore, by a both/and rather than an either/or approach. It is not nature or grace, but graced nature; not reason or faith, but reason illumined by faith; not law or Gospel, but law inspired by the Gospel; not Scripture or tradition, but normative tradition within Scripture; not faith or works, but faith issuing in works and works as expressions of faith; not authority or freedom, but authority through freedom."
Biden is prolife in respect to guns, access to health care and withdrawing from Afghanistan. Trump is prolife with respect to abortion but little else. Was he prolife when he threatened to shoot George Floyd protesters, or when his actions led to deaths on January 6th? People caught in these blinkered views think Jesus necessarily votes Red or Blue. I happen to think he probably leans Blue at the moment, and Christians should obviously vote for Biden. But Democrats certainly don't align perfectly with Catholic doctrine either.
Anyway it's a thought provoking book, and an interesting window into how intelligent evangelical conservatives can justify supporting Trump.
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
39So, in short, doing the right thing instead of the bible bullshit thing is the wrong thing? Trump is a rapist, but at least he deferred to his brainwashed Christian base on the fetus. Fuck cares what happens to the babies after, am I right?
We're headed for social anarchy when people start pissing on bookstores.
Re: Institution: the Roman Catholic Church
40Trump is a monster. I'm saying not to vote for him. Even if you're prolife.Krev wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:16 am So, in short, doing the right thing instead of the bible bullshit thing is the wrong thing? Trump is a rapist, but at least he deferred to his brainwashed Christian base on the fetus. Fuck cares what happens to the babies after, am I right?