So the answer is more propaganda? Excellent.

zorg wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:08 am So the answer is more propaganda? Excellent.

I get this. Not wanting to join the rhetorical arms race to the bottom. Ideally there would be some force to nudge the population in the direction of more nuanced discourse. I don't think there's anything about our current media landscape that can do it. It's almost a cliche at this point when some erudite progressive masterfully supports policy arguments with data and historical knowledge and some lizard brain mouth breather says something quippy and somehow looks victorious to whoever is watching.

There's another problem. Say the left wants to play just as dirty. The political ideology is just not as acidic. The desires for a more stable environment populated by people who have access to basic necessities is harder to weaponize. Like "care for your citizens, fuckers!".

I think there is a gritty, union populist kind of tone that can dress down a wealthy fat cat. Bernie has some of that. But Americans need to get over this bias that rich people are great because they're rich and if we admire them enough maybe we'll get to join the club.

I'm still cursing Manchin and Sinema (and a handful of others at times) for killing what could have been many victories to campaign on in 2024. So where does that leave us? More Lincoln Project style billboards of Trump with Stormy Daniels? Whatever it takes I guess. Too bad it couldn't have been stuff like "we achieved $15 minimum wage"..

penningtron wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:16 am I'm still cursing Manchin and Sinema (and a handful of others at times) for killing what could have been many victories to campaign on in 2024. So where does that leave us? More Lincoln Project style billboards of Trump with Stormy Daniels? Whatever it takes I guess. Too bad it couldn't have been stuff like "we achieved $15 minimum wage"..

It’s literally the Dems job to put a handbrake on any real progressive change in the US. They are basically a European style Conservative Party.

The GOP are just loons, but the Dems are genuinely evil, because they know better yet deliberately arrest any policy that would materially benefit the working people of the United States.

losthighway wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:36 am There's another problem. Say the left wants to play just as dirty. The political ideology is just not as acidic.

Well, and that speaks to the what Gramsci is talking about where the left's battle-lines are drawn around some statistically fringe, but "acidic" issues like trans rights, which do well to get people's ire up.

zorg wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:57 am

losthighway wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:36 am There's another problem. Say the left wants to play just as dirty. The political ideology is just not as acidic.

Well, and that speaks to the what Gramsci is talking about where the left's battle-lines are drawn around some statistically fringe, but "acidic" issues like trans rights, which do well to get people's ire up.

Broadly people are pretty tolerant on LGBT+ but when they’re looking at their daily struggles and all they see is two finges screaming at each other… it’s just a massive put off. “I’m struggling with rent and best I can get with my local Dems is gender neutral toilets.” While the GOP scream “they’ll try and fuck your kids”

It’s stupid

Gramsci wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:31 am

rsmurphy wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:22 pm

I believe his response was that he was "tricked," and something about being courteous because he was asked for a photo.

I'm low-key fiending for the opportunity to snap on the likes of a Boebert in public and Chappelle's out in these streets being tricked and gallant.

It’s a huge mistake for the left to even engage with this non-issue. It affects less than 0.5% of the population. There are more model train enthusiasts. While I appreciate this issue is a defining issue for very small group of people the idea the left should put this in front of intersectional issues such as labour rights, increased unionisation and other economically focused matters is ludicrous.

Initially I was hoping to share the OP in a C/NC thread about Dave Chappelle but could only find one dealing with a Netflix special so I chose to put it here. But to your point I respectfully disagree that it's a non-issue especially concerning the alarming rates of violence and discrimination towards the trans community, particularly against black women within that community. The rate of unsolved murders and abductions of black cis women were already high enough without taking into account violence and discrimination against black transwomen. Perhaps I'm biased or overly-emotional but believe we can focus on various problems at the same time especially since issues like labor rights and other economical issues directly affect our trans community.

That our elected officials can now be brazen about their hate is inspirational to those who yearn to act on that hate, and it should be called out whenever given the opportunity.

rsmurphy wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:33 pm

Gramsci wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:31 am It’s a huge mistake for the left to even engage with this non-issue. It affects less than 0.5% of the population. There are more model train enthusiasts. While I appreciate this issue is a defining issue for very small group of people the idea the left should put this in front of intersectional issues such as labour rights, increased unionisation and other economically focused matters is ludicrous.

That our elected officials can now be brazen about their hate is inspirational to those who yearn to act on that hate, and it should be called out whenever given the opportunity.

+1

Okay, so fine, transgender folks are ~ 0.5% of the population. But idiots who are just waiting to put down other folks see this shit and are like "oh, it's time to put down anyone who isn't a perfect Christian, athletic, hot, straight, white, non-nerdy, etc. person".

Hard agree with FM rsmurphy here.

Hate to pile on in response to what I think was a well intentioned and pragmatic line of reasoning, but the "trans rights don't win labor votes" argument is exactly where Bill Maher became an out of touch blowhard to me. The whole thing about minority rights is they are difficult and important to protect because they are by definition a smaller group of people. Some weird "help the bigger minorities because it's politically expedient" thing is a shade too LBJ to me. I'd say any tinier group is a litmus test for decency.

I have sympathies to FMlosthighway's line of thinking, and understand the reasoning, but I read Gramaci et al as leaning toward prioritization. Focusing on one problem more than another doesn't not negate either problem or ignore it, it's just a way of ordering the steps of progress, and I don't see as exclusionary or dismissive, but just an admission that there's still more shit to do than there are hours in the day.