jfv wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:12 am PRF

Nah, but I'm not sure if you're being cheeky. But, if it's American and not born from black culture, then, is it white culture, even if diverse populations are a part of it?

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:01 am

jfv wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:12 am PRF

Nah, but I'm not sure if you're being cheeky. But, if it's American and not born from black culture, then, is it white culture, even if diverse populations are a part of it?

I was sort of being serious. As a white American, I was trying to think of something I participate in that is predominantly but certainly not exclusively white folks.. that was also something I was proud of and is really cool. PRF came to mind.

Also, if it is in fact something exclusive to "white" Americans that no other race celebrated, wouldn't there likely be some sort of negative racist element to it?

I guess here's the other problem defining "white" culture. We all have origins predominantly from several dozen European countries, and many of us cling to cultural stuff from those specific countries. But shit, I have origins in no fewer than six of them, as does my wife. My kids have fractional origins in more than ten countries. It's so diluted for them.. I guess they are pretty much just "white" Americans now.

Maybe there is no "white" American culture. That's probably a good thing. Maybe we're just creating "American" culture.. erf, that sounds demeaning to Native Americans.

I don't know. I'm just trying to live a life.

jfv wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:08 am I was sort of being serious. As a white American, I was trying to think of something I participate in that is predominantly but certainly not exclusively white folks.. that was also something I was proud of and is really cool. PRF came to mind.

I understand your point, thanks for expounding on it. I never looked at EA/PRF from that perspective possibly because I'm so accustomed to America as a whole, warts and all as being white culture; the default.

I guess here's the other problem defining "white" culture. We all have origins predominantly from several dozen European countries, and many of us cling to cultural stuff from those specific countries. But shit, I have origins in no fewer than six of them, as does my wife. My kids have fractional origins in more than ten countries. It's so diluted for them.. I guess they are pretty much just "white" Americans now.

I don't know

In this instance it's by design that white people can't or don't define cultural touchstones instead choosing to paint them all as white. It maintains supremacist systems; it's also the default of being born in America.

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:48 am In this instance it's by design that white people can't or don't define cultural touchstones instead choosing to paint them all as white. It maintains supremacist systems; it's also the default of being born in America.

No doubt there are historical, racist elements to how things like demographics are tracked in the US.

I also start to feel a bit disingenuous celebrating Dutch or Irish events, even though I have 3/8 and 1/4 heritage in those countries. First time I went over to Europe.."oh, I'm Dutch!" Yeah, right stupid American, go home.

So what am I exactly? Ugh. I like the idea of just calling myself an American, though as mentioned I don't quite feel 100% right about that either.

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 6:58 am Made a joke to myself about the people who chase that wheel of cheese down a steep hill as being white culture and fell down a rabbit hole about how we define culture, does white American culture actually exist, and other concepts much too heavy for an early Monday morning. Started thinking about if Africans or Middle Eastern people celebrate Halloween, pagan rituals, religious concepts as being a part of culture. I think y'all can claim Halloween, but it isn't a strictly white American thing so to speak, plus hardcore Christians hate it much like many African countries and for the same reasons. Wild stuff. Humans are deeply weird.

Hmm, it’s a tough question, isn’t it? (Humans are indeed deeply weird.) Even stuff like country music isn’t cut-and-dry. Label execs, radio stations, and fans might have tried to police the racial borders around country, but the musicians sure didn’t.

Maybe film noir counts?

jfv wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 9:09 am

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:48 am I also start to feel a bit disingenuous celebrating Dutch or Irish events, even though I have 3/8 and 1/4 heritage in those countries. First time I went over to Europe.."oh, I'm Dutch!" Yeah, right stupid American, go home.

I feel like "American" is the qualifier, or neutralizer, as it were, erasing any semblance of outside nationalities or ethnicities. Does it matter to you? Do you celebrate being Dutch, Irish, and other ethnicities that comprise the whole in America? Super weird that you know where your people are from but feel like a poser honoring those origins. This is definitely an American thing and America's fault.

wood goblin wrote:Even stuff like country music isn’t cut-and-dry.

It's unfortunate that as a people (country) we can't honor the contribution of Lesley Riddle, among others, and see country music as multi-cultural, or that we even have to demarcate music in this fashion. I used to search for black avant-garde musicians outside of jazz or outsider art idioms; same for industrial music, and began thinking about what makes certain genres not exclusionary but the province of any one particular race/ethnicity.

I think humans are more deeply messed-up than weird.

I agree that it’s unfortunate—really depressing, in fact.

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:07 am I feel like "American" is the qualifier, or neutralizer, as it were, erasing any semblance of outside nationalities or ethnicities. Does it matter to you? Do you celebrate being Dutch, Irish, and other ethnicities that comprise the whole in America? Super weird that you know where your people are from but feel like a poser honoring those origins. This is definitely an American thing and America's fault.

It’s also my fault. I am super insecure.

If I may interject with my "European expertise", I think that you White Americans TM are putting more of a heritage on it that you have the right to do so. Shit, that might come out wrong... You're putting more of a right on that heritage that anyone across the ocean really cares about it that much that you do.

You could come to Paris/Berlin/Amsterdam and say to a native in your fluent Floridian that you are quarter something and they would probably say "fuck you and fuck Donald Trump you ignorant assholes. But thanks for McD, though." back to you.

I am paraphrasing.

Lu Zwei wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 3:10 pm I am paraphrasing.

I think I get it now.

The experience I was referencing was 19 years ago, when I was much younger, immature, and have since been to Europe maybe 30 times.

I wish I could tell my younger self not to be that way, but obviously not possible.

It’s also not possible to remove that memory from my brain. It was a clear “why do you do what you do?” moment.

Anyway, I think I have a better perspective on things now.