Frankie99 wrote: I realize most people don't enjoy the journey, but Jesus Fuck Man, progress is made by taking steps in one direction toward an outcome as a part of an overall process.

Now now, no being a grown-up in the Politics thread.

A kind reminder . . .

It’s possible to cast a vote that might ultimately benefit others without one having to get emotionally wrapped up in the contest, all of the hullabaloo surrounding it, or even the outcome.

One can participate in a big tent election while still maintaining a critical distance or detachment.

One can vote for a candidate that isn’t his cup of tea at all without this being a violation of his personal and political ideals.

I think that all of the intense activity surrounding these things can obscure this fact. It’s something that I need to be reminded of myself.

Voting makes a difference. It has consequences that play out in the real world. But it doesn’t have to dominate one’s life. It’s possible to vote while otherwise being aloof about all of the discourse and ramped-up “eventfulness” surrounding it. This can be done by mail without terribly much effort.

Another +1 to FM Frankie99. This vocal opposition to participating in democracy because of its many flaws is basically projecting one’s taste to others, and accomplishes nothing beyond ego self gratification.

DaveA wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:19 am A kind reminder . . .

It’s possible to cast a vote that might ultimately benefit others without one having to get emotionally wrapped up in the contest, all of the hullabaloo surrounding it, or even the outcome.

Yes. This is why some of the Shepherd Fairy Obama shirts feel weird now. I didn't buy one, but there was a time when I just might have. Looking back that sentiment is regrettable. My vote was not.

People who literally wave flags for a president or presidential candidate are delusional and weird. I think anyone on here gets that, but I think what some people of our ilk don't get is they expect a candidate they could love enough to wave a flag for or they're unwilling to participate. This is just as delusional. The game has always been and only ever will be choosing someone likely to do more good than harm. After choosing to the best of your ability to get that, you are under no obligation to answer for all of the actions taken by that politician. This is not buying a band's T-shirt. In fact they are under obligation to answer to us, as our responsibility is to vociferously communicate our concerns. This is an administrator, not an icon or hero.

Kind of liking where this thread went.

Do I consider most candidates, right and left alike, to be slightly creepy at best, operators somewhere in the middle, and sociopaths at worst. Yep. (That even includes someone like Sanders, whose platform I mostly liked but who I put very little faith in re: an ability to actually implement it.)

I mean, Jesus. I don't dig Harris's centrist, somewhat hapless vibes much at all. But from a pure policy standpoint, would I roll the dice on her vs. a guy who is essentially a cross btw my worst NYC landlord, a spoiled rich kid, a casino boss, and a professional wrestler? Not even a question. Trump is too opportunistic and shallow to be fascism incarnate, and I dunno if Harris is really the best woman (never mind black woman) for the job re: some notion of representation in government. But I'll gladly take the time out of my day to mark that ballot for her clearly, even if it's mostly to get him out of the fucking news cycle again for a while.

Frankie99 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:37 am not voting says you don't care about those who would be hurt, suffer, or be killed.

Eh, this is not a good argument to vote, or vote blue, especially this year.
The idea behind not voting, or voting independent for me is not to throw in the towel. Quite the opposite. It's to fight that instinct to be "Petty, self serving, unrelated to the direction of the country". If you really want to bring about change America, you need to get rid of the monolithic structure of the two party system. They're two sides of the same coin run entirely by the same corporate entities. If you want to chip away, you take away their votes (and money) until a viable third party could have a realistic chance, or one or both of the existing parties make major changes This will take hundreds of years, but will otherwise never happen, and we will continue in our current death-spiral trajectory. Duty now for the future.

By the way, what's going on with the national debt....just keep kicking that can down the road, huh?

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:18 am Trump is too opportunistic and shallow to be fascism incarnate

It's not even about him anymore. He's just trying to get rich(er) and stay out of jail, and will eventually go the fuck away. But Project 2025 is some deeply ghoulish, permanently-altering shit.

I wish I could get behind the "do your civic duty and stay cool" thing this time around but this election could effect our livelihood (gutting, if not complete elimination of the agency my partner works at). Could not give a fuck less if Kamala is someone I'd "like to have a beer with".

zorg wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:24 am If you really want to bring about change America, you need to get rid of the monolithic structure of the two party system. They're two sides of the same coin run entirely by the same corporate entities. If you want to chip away, you take away their votes (and money) until a viable third party could have a realistic chance, or one or both of the existing parties make major changes This will take hundreds of years, but will otherwise never happen, and we will continue in our current death-spiral trajectory.

Great. So where's the actual fucking plan? Again.. been hearing this stuff for 25 years and 3rd party candidates have become even kookier, DSA meetings I've seen are just a double A version of normal politics, same back-stabbing and gas lighting but on a pathetically small scale. When they can start winning even Alderman seats, let alone city and county I'll get more behind it.

The cycle I've lived through has been 4-8 years of minor progress but not enough for many to notice, then 4-8 years of absolute chaos, war, recession. Rinse/repeat. Maybe if the former can become the given, the left can push harder for significant progress but unless we eliminate the latter, we're stuck here.

zorg wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:24 am

Frankie99 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:37 am not voting says you don't care about those who would be hurt, suffer, or be killed.

Eh, this is not a good argument to vote, or vote blue, especially this year.
The idea behind not voting, or voting independent for me is not to throw in the towel. Quite the opposite. It's to fight that instinct to be "Petty, self serving, unrelated to the direction of the country". If you really want to bring about change America, you need to get rid of the monolithic structure of the two party system. They're two sides of the same coin run entirely by the same corporate entities. If you want to chip away, you take away their votes (and money) until a viable third party could have a realistic chance, or one or both of the existing parties make major changes This will take hundreds of years, but will otherwise never happen, and we will continue in our current death-spiral trajectory. Duty now for the future.

By the way, what's going on with the national debt....just keep kicking that can down the road, huh?

I think this is myopic and flawed. The spiral is not hundreds of years, and you are not a catalyst for change by withholding your donation to ActBlue or whatever.

My guys, you are having it too good in your life to really know what it means to vote for an improvement of living conditions.

I live with 1400$ (after tax) as my monthly income. In that amount I had to include my apartment, bank loan, child welfare and somehow manage as a human being with my needs and hobbies.

What is my point?

You are having it too good to really care about making it a change come election time.

That said, going the way of a least fascist guy is always a good way to go. That should be the only benchmark.

Also, someone please explain to me how a liberal and a left voter are on the fence on this one!?

Thank you!

Frankie99 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:37 am but not voting says you don't care about those who would be hurt, suffer, or be killed.

tell that to the palestinians