zorg wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 1:12 pm Thanks for the reality check, I don't think I've ever watched a technical discussion from either of these guys, so I guess I wasn't prepared for the "mojo" based teardown of the recording process. I have great respect for Neil's music and sound, and Rick has managed to make a good number of quality records with artists I like....but considering their strong pedigrees they both surprised me by coming off as complete dilletantes.

So many talented people start believing that ALL of their ideas are exceptional and then fall into this trap.

I think it's why FM steve was/is/willforeverbe so refreshing.

Dr Tony Balls wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:50 pm

Kniferide wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:41 pm My Number of the Beast Cassette had print through so bad all the songs had a pre-delay you could hear even in my 1971 El Camino stereo. It was awesome.

How could anything said here NOT be awesome?

My cassette of The Misfits - Earth A.D. had print through during the silence at the end of side 2 and I always thought it was cool as fuck

At random I happened to see this video around the time it came out and had thought of posting about it here. But then I figured, "I don't want to bother those guys with this."

Did notice a little delay-like print-through on some 4-track master tapes a few years back, so it's a real thing. But they were over 20 years old, not less than 20 seconds.

Print-through is a solvable issue, and I'm sure Neil and Rick have enough money to hire an engineer to make sure it's not happening.

Neil going on about the "dark space" stuff and how the sound has gone through some magical transformation while Rick Rubin stares at his bare feet ... it's all nonsense. If there's some immediate sound degradation then the whole idea of an alignment tape is kaput - it's like having a ruler made out of ice in a warm room. Yet alignment tapes continue to be valuable tools.

The benefits (and drawbacks) of analog recording are straightforward - there is nothing magical about having a very direct workflow to record an accurate sounding master on a medium of unbeaten permanence. No need to dress it up as more than that. Again, if you're these old-timers, you can choose to accept the challenges around cost and maintenance as an acceptable price to pay.

Maybe he went onto a different point, I turned this off after about a minute.

= Justin

Also echoing (no pun intended) what MSE said: using tape then immediately dumping to digital is such a hilariously 2005 idea I can't believe these guys are excited to talk about it now. There are so many damn 'coloring' devices and plug-ins, just record to digital already. Thankfully, anything good either of them will ever make already exists on tape somewhere.

penningtron wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:02 pm Also echoing (no pun intended) what MSE said: using tape then immediately dumping to digital is such a hilariously 2005 idea I can't believe these guys are excited to talk about it now. There are so many damn 'coloring' devices and plug-ins, just record to digital already. Thankfully, anything good either of them will ever make already exists on tape somewhere.

But you can really hear the dynamics when the tape is digitized, you know man?

Justin Foley wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 12:40 pm Neil going on about the "dark space" stuff and how the sound has gone through some magical transformation while Rick Rubin stares at his bare feet ... it's all nonsense.

= Justin

Neil Young put all the Mojo and Voodoo in the Les Pauls and Blooze Kazoos so you I think they know Dark Magic when they hear it. Rick Rubin can feel it between his toes! Can you even imagine how much sage smoke they had to waft out of there before they could get a clear shot on camera? All of it. That's how much.

"You've now taken that dark step into that realm [digital] where nothing is real".

AAAND already I'm out. Sorry Neil, you're talking crap.

I have said it before, information theory exists, it is a well-established branch of mathematics and it makes a mockery of any crusty musician or audio engineer's claims about analogue tape being "more real". It's not more fucking real. It does not have infinite resolution. It has a noise floor, it has a frequency limit, it has a measurable amount of information content.

This is more the sort of thing I used to annoy Steve by disagreeing with him about, but I think digital technology even has the edge when it comes to permanence as well. Previous revolutions in digital technology saw remarkable improvements in long-term data retention. I am thinking here of the invention of writing by humans, and the evolution of DNA. Digital technology is the clear winner.

In purely practical terms, I just (finally) set up a multitrack setup in our jam room. We got a $300 mix box we've been using for live shows which was there anyway, that's got 18 channels over USB, plus I've got another 8 ins from a box somebody gave me for free, plugged into a 10 year old iMac we also got given for free. Works well, cost NOTHING. I can take a copy of the multitrack home in my pocket.

However, vintage stuff is cool. I love old technology. I'm getting old too.

So what he’s the fuckin king

He's not the king of maths though, or the king of how machines work. I probably wouldn't take medical advice from these guys either.