Re: Politics

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penningtron wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:09 pm
rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:01 pm when I read things like hysteria surrounding trans issues is crazy
I think originally this was referring to Republicans and Faux News saying shit like "the schools are turning your kids trans!" and not that trans hate is insignificant.
OK I can understand this, but I also believe this particular brand of hysteria needs to be counteracted with facts, fully knowing that a segment of society is allergic to facts.
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Re: Politics

2472
Pretty sure I once had a discussion here or on FB back in 2016 with former FM Connor about these issues except the issues dealt with race. It's weird that we are again in a sense discussing these same matters in 2024.
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Re: Politics

2473
rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:01 pm
Gramsci wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:28 am That doesn’t mean not talking about issues like trans rights.
I'm trying to understand: so we the people can talk about these issues or we can't? It's healthcare, care that the privileged can navigate with ease as if the barriers are non-existent because they are.
Honestly I try to stay patient discussing this but the level of bad strategic thinking I see around this is incredibly frustrating.
Imagine what it must feel like to those going through it!

I'm not calling you or anyone else heartless, but when I read things like hysteria surrounding trans issues is crazy, or it's a niche of a niche issue, those perspectives are worrying to me.
Talk about whatever you want. I’m not here to police anyone. I’m pointing out my own personal philosophy regarding politics. Let’s take healthcare, namely public healthcare in the US. A public system would significantly positively impact the lives of everyone. But importantly the people it would serve the most are the people of minority communities like trans people. To get something like a public healthcare system in the US would require mass mobilisation of working people. That’s the frame, public healthcare for all, not just trans because that will happen when the first thing happens. When that happens the people that will benefit the most - this isn’t zero sum - are… trans people. So the externality of a universal right is a significant increase in rights for minorities. Universal rights create solidarity because no one likes giving up their rights once they have them. Key example the British NHS. Talk about minority issues as much as necessary but don’t claim that by getting more rights for all that minorities aren’t included. That’s liberal (centrist) brain worms designed to atomise working people into small groups. Don’t be fooled, conservatives and liberals love identity politics because it keeps workers divided and ruled.
Last edited by Gramsci on Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.

Re: Politics

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rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:25 pm Pretty sure I once had a discussion here or on FB back in 2016 with former FM Connor about these issues except the issues dealt with race. It's weird that we are again in a sense discussing these same matters in 2024.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.

Re: Politics

2475
rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:16 pm
penningtron wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:09 pm
rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:01 pm when I read things like hysteria surrounding trans issues is crazy
I think originally this was referring to Republicans and Faux News saying shit like "the schools are turning your kids trans!" and not that trans hate is insignificant.
OK I can understand this, but I also believe this particular brand of hysteria needs to be counteracted with facts, fully knowing that a segment of society is allergic to facts.
yes to facts. Honesty should NOT be a right wing value.

The exact quote was Harris wants to fund trans operations on prisoners. (She does.)
Then gramsci said that will never happen. (It already has.)

Re: Politics

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hbiden@onlyfans.com wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:38 pm
rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:16 pm
penningtron wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:09 pm

I think originally this was referring to Republicans and Faux News saying shit like "the schools are turning your kids trans!" and not that trans hate is insignificant.
OK I can understand this, but I also believe this particular brand of hysteria needs to be counteracted with facts, fully knowing that a segment of society is allergic to facts.
yes to facts. Honesty should NOT be a right wing value.

The exact quote was Harris wants to fund trans operations on prisoners. (She does.)
Then gramsci said that will never happen. (It already has.)
Wasn’t it said that prisoners get public healthcare therefore potentially… theoretically they could receive gender reassignment surgery… that’s not “wanting to fund” anything it’s just something that, theoretically, could already happen because rules.

The point was she’s not going run in a political platform of gender reassignment surgery for criminals. That would be insane.
clocker bob may 30, 2006 wrote:I think the possibility of interbreeding between an earthly species and an extraterrestrial species is as believable as any other explanation for the existence of George W. Bush.

Re: Politics

2477
Gramsci wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:43 pm
hbiden@onlyfans.com wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:38 pm
rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:16 pm

OK I can understand this, but I also believe this particular brand of hysteria needs to be counteracted with facts, fully knowing that a segment of society is allergic to facts.
yes to facts. Honesty should NOT be a right wing value.

The exact quote was Harris wants to fund trans operations on prisoners. (She does.)
Then gramsci said that will never happen. (It already has.)
Wasn’t it said that prisoners get public healthcare therefore potentially… theoretically they could receive gender reassignment surgery… that’s not “wanting to fund” anything it’s just something that, theoretically, could already happen because rules.

The point was she’s not going run in a political platform of gender reassignment surgery for criminals. That would be insane.
that would not be insane to me. It would align with her stated values and differentiate her from Trump, which is what they both want.

Re: Politics

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Gramsci:
You object on terms of strategy, but no one from the center to the left in power is pursuing a strategy that revolves around or gives a prominent position to trans rights. Neither are there major influence groups doing that, unions or what have you. And there are also no large blocks on the left devoted to trans rights as their strategy for taking over the world or whatever. Yes, there are vocal people who find it important, some of them make videos or whatever (more power to all of them!!!), but the whole thing you are whinging about does not exist. Right-wingers mobilise heavily against trans people. And you are afraid that leftists stepping up as allies is going to make them (or whoever you fancy) not be able to take over the world (or branches of US government) and get people more money, stability, health care, etc. Or have I got that wrong?

Re: Politics

2479
This gets a little into the weeds, but I'm going to take a risk and try and put some of my recent thoughts into words and encourage anyone to rip into them- thoughtfully- where they are misguided.

We came out of a LONG post Civil Rights Amendment period where the popular perception was that anti-racism was color blindness. Most people hated hate, tried "not to see color" and felt great about themselves. I don't know if later (painfully late) developments with gay rights could be grouped in with that or not.

Leading up to- and peaking with- BLM there was a growing understanding amongst privileged allies that the above is bullshit because the system is rigged and that there is no form of passive anti-racism because of too many systemic factors. With this conversation, ideas about intersectionality, amplifying minority voices- lots of healthy cultural progress that also contained all of the side effects of circular firing squads, woke performative social media battles etc.

None of this is done, but it seemed to me that while the cultural conversation needed to continue, the policy makers could rarely tether themselves to a culture war in a way that felt authentic, or could be understood by enough of whomever their electorate was. We look to someone like Sanders, or some of Biden's better post-Covid policies (inspired and/or co-written by Sanders) to see how broadly enhancing the country's supports for all disenfranchised people does more that loudly championing one particular demographic.

I feel like Harris is trying to continue that. She's not really playing identity politics as hard as some have in the recent past because I don't think they were a great avenue for winning elections, or even necessarily helping the people they represent in a concrete way. But I think her people are all really adept at pointing out when someone like Trump says something cringeworthy in their attempt to enter that cultural war. I hope that someone like Harris is as trustworthy to the trans community as I think she is. Some days it feels like a bare minimum respect for the rights of LGBTQ+ is just kind of baked into being a garden variety democrat, at least at a policy level, but I know better than to trust my take on that. The most I really know comes from the comments of my gay and trans friends, my life is too easy in that department for me to speak with certainty.

I don't know if this analysis is fully accurate, and I don't know where it leads, but it seems to me that there has been a shift in the last 5-odd years or so. I hope that it's not a roll back to don't-ask-don't-tell, or "I don't see race", but rather a more thoughtful synthesis between the two preceding phases of that dialogue.

Re: Politics

2480
Gramsci wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:35 pm
rsmurphy wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:01 pm
Gramsci wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:28 am That doesn’t mean not talking about issues like trans rights.
I'm trying to understand: so we the people can talk about these issues or we can't? It's healthcare, care that the privileged can navigate with ease as if the barriers are non-existent because they are.
Honestly I try to stay patient discussing this but the level of bad strategic thinking I see around this is incredibly frustrating.
Imagine what it must feel like to those going through it!

I'm not calling you or anyone else heartless, but when I read things like hysteria surrounding trans issues is crazy, or it's a niche of a niche issue, those perspectives are worrying to me.
Talk about whatever you want. I’m not here to police anyone. I’m pointing out my own personal philosophy regarding politics. Let’s take healthcare, namely public healthcare in the US. A public system would significantly positively impact the lives of everyone. But importantly the people it would serve the most are the people of minority communities like trans people. To get something like a public healthcare system in the US would require mass mobilisation of working people. That’s the frame, public healthcare for all, not just trans because that will happen when the first thing happens.
But that is not happening. It literally is not happening, and I also think your perspective might be damaging to the trans community by implying fault within the community for why universal healthcare doesn't get passed. We have the Equality Act that expands Titles II and VI of the Civil Rights Act, specifically Title II which in part prohibits discrimination in health care, but aside from the question posed to Kamala Harris in the debate I haven't seen or read about her being laser-focused on trans issues.
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