Anthony Flack wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 3:31 pm

Hex wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:24 pm How come it’s never the bigots that are called “narcissistic” for not caving to trans rights or supporting an end to Palestinian genocide?

It's people who see voting as an expression of their personal beliefs rather than as a tactical decision who are narcissistic.

Winner winner, chicken dinner

Anthony Flack wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 3:31 pm

Hex wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:24 pm How come it’s never the bigots that are called “narcissistic” for not caving to trans rights or supporting an end to Palestinian genocide?

It's people who see voting as an expression of their personal beliefs rather than as a tactical decision who are narcissistic.

That is missing my point: why is that only ever fucking directed at marginalized people who do that but not likewise for transphobes and zionists who vote as expressions of their personal beliefs? There is an huge fucking double standard here and it’s fucking shitty to constantly encounter this. I *never* see anyone complaining about transphobes or zionists in the Democratic party who wouldn’t get in line to vote if Harris explicitly supported trans rights or not sending arms to Israel. Instead I log on the internet every day to see cis people fucking hammering on and on against trans people for this and it fucking feels like shit, especially when it’s coming from people who claim they aren’t transphobic despite always seeming to aim their ire at us if we don’t completely fall in line. Jesus fucking christ I hate that I even have to explain this

It is a fucking reality that among any policy position combination there is going to be a portion of voters they alienate. And yet no matter what combination, complaints are *always* extremely skewed against marginalized people instead of those bigoted against them. If Dems support ceasing suppling weapons to Israel and alienate Zionists? You’d see constant hammering on social media and opinion columns about how they need to change their position to court the Zionist vote and rail against Muslims who don’t go along. When Dems don’t support that, it’s still all screeds against Muslims who won’t vote for them. Dems support trans rights or even just not rolling them back? I see people and columns say they should change their policies to be more “sensible” to “moderates” and rail against trans people whose votes they’d lose. If the Dems were to “compromise” on further civil rights restrictions on a group already subject to constant vicious hatred, violence, and state oppression, I’m of course gonna see people yelling at us for not all lining up for something worse than the already painful lives we have because the GOP would be even more torturous. Can you fucking understand why seeing this every fucking where I go might piss me off a bit? It pisses almost *all* of us like this—literally every person I know in my entire community has vented about this shit with each other at some point or another.

If your argument is that there’s more than them than us, then either you don’t need our vote regardless, in which case there’s no point at going on against those who don’t vote Dem, or if you *do* need a portion of minority vote, then newsflash—that logically means you need portions of *both* group’s votes. If you then say “well, there’s fewer of them so they should be the ones who have to be more pressured to get in line”, congratulations, you have literally just sided with bigots solely because there are more of them. Real fucking great “ally” behavior there.

Hex wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:22 pm There is an huge fucking double standard here and it’s fucking shitty to constantly encounter this.

If it makes you feel any better, I don’t think it would make a difference if anyone who ever argued about voting on this board ever voted in another election again, even in our very direct, very on the level democracy. This stuff comes up every 4 years here and everywhere else, and if they weren’t arguing the same points with you, they’d find someone else to get mad at.

Hex wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:22 pm I *never* see anyone complaining about transphobes or zionists in the Democratic party who wouldn’t get in line to vote if Harris explicitly supported trans rights or not sending arms to Israel.

Is this even a thing? Seriously?

Other than an occasional stop here - which is a chore most of the time these days anyway, I don't spend my day on the internet giving two fucks what most people, if anyone thinks. Perhaps that's as good a piece of advice for anyone who's suffering from poor mental health as anything: If you're spending time online interacting socially with anyone you don't know personally, or giving half-a-fuck what anyone online thinks about anything - particularly those who are ultimately powerless as you are, you're setting yourself up for depression. The internet is great for learning about antique cameras, gardening, pet care, how to restore a small gasoline engine, and perhaps sometimes watching people give themselves or others orgasms. The internet sucks for witnessing people apply labels and beliefs to themselves, denying them to others and stirring the shitmess that is individuality and tribalism. I've found in my 50+ years on this planet that people who focus on their identity or 'in group' are not very interesting people in general, and are lacking in the kinds of interests and experiences that might provide fulfillment and meaning outside of their group identity. They also tend to lack an appropriate sense of humor about themselves or their in-group. Boring.

My vote is a transaction. I want to elect those that are, in importance:
- Understand the law and the importance of Rule of Law
- Understand the Social Contract and understand how we are accountable as citizens and representatives of society under that contract
- Will enact or enforce policy that will bring the greatest good to the greatest number of citizens, beings and the environment
- Will enact or enforce policy that brings the least harm to the fewest people, beings and - most importantly, the environment

There's no shortage of people that feel marginalized about something out there. Are you going to court each and every one of them? Christians who think they're marginalized, Anti-vaxxers who think their marginalized, Cat lovers who feel marginalized. Fighting knife and broadsword enthusiasts who feel marginalized. Gas-powered leaf-blower users who feel marginalized.

The sad reality with politics is you have to make your choices based upon the greatest good and the broadest benefits, and that may mean that some people and interests at the margins may not get catered to the way you would like to see. That's life. If all you can focus on is trans-folks and Palestinians you may also be doing disservice to the other 8 billion people on this planet and the trillions of other lifeforms on this planet that may be impacted by policy decisions that you chose to ignore because of your focus on trans people and Palestinians. Realize that the folks that you see as 'The Enemy' may feel exactly the same way you do about their perceived marginalization or grievances - justified or not, and may find your justifications just as trivial as you find theirs.

If a group of people is constantly getting the short end of the stick, and they ask you for a fairer deal, and you need their support to win an election, how the fuck can you get mad at them and not the people who refuse to, in this case, accept toning down on fucking genocide? You go on about the greater good but that apparently *never* includes Palestinians, never includes trans people, etc. And they’re supposed to all just fucking accept that? Why does your “left unity” always involve marginalized people accepting a “compromise” on their oppression? If your response is “sorry, there’s more bigots who won’t compromise so you deserve blame” then I hope you understand why so many of us think you’re pieces of fucking shit, “allies” in name only. You care more about aggregate utilitarianism over actual fairness. You would accept trans and POC tortured for eternity if enough cis and white people were happy about it by that logic. Fuck!

And holy shit, responding to the oppression trans people and Palestinians face with “Christians and anti-vaxxers feel marginalized too!”??? Go fuck yourself, you absolute ghoul

Hex wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 9:14 pm If a group of people is constantly getting the short end of the stick, and they ask you for a fairer deal, and you need their support to win an election, how the fuck can you get mad at them and not the people who refuse to, in this case, accept toning down on fucking genocide? You go on about the greater good but that apparently *never* includes Palestinians, never includes trans people, etc. And they’re supposed to all just fucking accept that? Why does your “left unity” always involve marginalized people accepting a “compromise” on their oppression? If your response is “sorry, there’s more bigots who won’t compromise so you deserve blame” then I hope you understand why so many of us think you’re pieces of fucking shit, “allies” in name only. You care more about aggregate utilitarianism over actual fairness. You would accept trans and POC tortured for eternity if enough cis and white people were happy about it by that logic. Fuck!

You seem to have not read and digested a thing I said. And who says I'm mad? I'm trying to offer some aged wisdom as someone who spent much of my youth angry and frustrated.

Life is nothing but compromises. Nature is cruel and uncaring. Good humans try to bend the arc of history toward love, fairness and equity, but it is a long, slow and ugly path, and it's not because your supposed "allies" don't care enough. It's simply the nature of a world where compromise and incremental progress are endemic to how change happens, no less a part of nature than V=IR or E=MC^2 or f=MA.

Hex wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 9:20 pm And holy shit, responding to the oppression trans people and Palestinians face with “Christians and anti-vaxxers feel marginalized too!”??? Go fuck yourself, you absolute ghoul

And this is exactly why we can't have nice things.