zorg wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 2:29 pm You'd make a great JW.

Nah - I'm on the good side of things. But thanks.

What’s interesting to me is that some on the left can’t even fathom how or why someone else would be less politically committed than them without the person in question essentially being their foe, or someone to be converted.

Like, below a certain threshold of activity or demonstrativeness, shy of enough notches to one side, enough hours on the ground—whatever—and the individual reverts to being “part of the problem,” “out of touch,” and may as well be a centrist, or Trumper, or worse.

Go to your local pub, try that on for size, and see how it goes.

I think this is less and less a left problem and something that polarisation is causing across the spectrum. I am friends with a few rightwingers (sane, fiscal conservative types) and they’re becoming much more demonstrative in their politics. I’m not sure where this all goes but social media is definitely the cause.

Gramsci wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:38 pm I think this is less and less a left problem and something that polarisation is causing across the spectrum. I am friends with a few rightwingers (sane, fiscal conservative types) and they’re becoming much more demonstrative in their politics. I’m not sure where this all goes but social media is definitely the cause.

Sadly Gramsci, it's the perennial problem of the left. The overwhelming majority will do the bare minimum, then insist the best possible life is a right and not a privilege. Without the daily graft, the good get steamrollered.

Oh without a doubt the left are appalling at factionalism and spiralling down doctrinal and identity rabbit holes with zero eye on the long game. I’m just see that kind of self pigeon holing spreading across the political spectrum. Primarily driven by social media.

Gramsci wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:09 am Oh without a doubt the left are appalling at factionalism and spiralling down doctrinal and identity rabbit holes with zero eye on the long game. I’m just see that kind of self pigeon holing spreading across the political spectrum. Primarily driven by social media.

I don't mean that Gramsci, as much as pure fucking laziness.

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:43 am

Gramsci wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:09 am Oh without a doubt the left are appalling at factionalism and spiralling down doctrinal and identity rabbit holes with zero eye on the long game. I’m just see that kind of self pigeon holing spreading across the political spectrum. Primarily driven by social media.

I don't mean that Gramsci, as much as pure fucking laziness.

There’s definitely that. Most people think about politics exactly zero times per day. I don’t hold that against anyone. The system is designed to minimise participation to occasion voting. I think most people have no idea what anything else even looks like since the deindustrialisation of the 80s. There’s little room in people’s lives for class based community so it descends into identity. Which in my opinion creates unnecessary differences and factionalism compared a broad intersectional movement based on foundation of economic class.

On topic Trump and anti-Trumpism is the perfect avatar of this.

Identity politics triggers me. It's a ploy for radical leftists to not unpack their racism.

rsmurphy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:29 am Identity politics triggers me. It's a ploy for radical leftists to not unpack their racism.

This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

losthighway wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:09 am This is really interesting to me and I don't think I fully understand it. Can you say more about this?

The American government and/or America has never substantially accounted for, explained, apologized, and made reparations for chattel slavery, Jim Crow, and the destruction of black families via the criminal justice system. Most, if not all of our faults rests on these issues. Framing this as I believe some on the far left do as identity politics keeps it on the back burner so as to dismantle other systems first, and the racial issues will work themselves out. It's a way of not centering black America in the conversation when it needs to be. And I think this is done partly out of the fear and discomfort with internal dialogues about race.