Bernie Sanders: “It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that the working class has abandoned them.”

Curry Pervert wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:59 pm buncha crap about Ukraine

Hey, watch out for that statue and commemoration day! That's your defense?

You're using statues of Bandera—an independence leader who died in the '50s and had a complicated, if murderous legacy (kinda like Lenin or Stalin in that respect, whose statues are all over Ukraine and the post-Soviet world to this day)—to partly justify the full-on invasion of a country and the abduction of nearly 20,000 children?

By that logic, newly independent Ukraine should have just dropped its '90s nuclear arsenal on Moscow b/c of all those Stalin busts the Russians made Ukrainians look at for decades—to use a far more brutal and genocidal "hero" than Bandera. Might have preemptively solved the problem.

Russia has been using Bandera's name as an excuse to imprison, torture, starve, and kill independence-minded Ukrainians—quite a few of whom had or have nothing to do w/him—since forever. And still does this today.

I'm w/Krev on this. Need I remind you of Ukraine's Jewish president. And of all the actual neo-Nazis in the West and Russia that sympathize w/Putin, believe conspiracies about a NATO/US plot, and don't think the majority of Ukrainians should determine when and how they leave Russia's political and economic orbit.

Your wanky-tankie narrative is not quite so "widely accepted" (your words) in the West as you say. I called it "largely invented" not to mean that you personally invented it—but of course you thought that—but to mean that it is... mostly a fabrication. A lot of it was promoted heavily in the '00s and '10s by Russian state media, RT's Western press blitz at the time specifically.

Some people on the left agree w/you, perhaps an equal or greater number do not. More accurate to say it's the subject of much debate in those circles. Your take is big w/conspiracy-minded dicks, Soviet apologists, and bros who get pumped when they see phantom Nazis everywhere.

But you know where your take is quite ubiquitous in America these days? The fuckin' far right!

The example of you aligning w/someone such as Trump (who, like you, thinks NATO provoked the Ukraine issue) and conservative America literally defines what "horseshoe theory" is. For real. (Unless, of course, you're a secret Republican or some other shit I totally missed. In which case, go pop a cork.)

Anyway, you should be thrilled. Ukraine is even more fucked now. And the guy calling the shots on this side of the pond sees the root cause exactly as you do.

Like I said before, discussing this w/you became pointless long ago.

Oh, but if I don't respond to you or I cool out again, I'm sure you'll just post some gloating nonsense again about shutting me up or whatever. Pfft.

ChudFusk wrote:

Curry Pervert wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:07 pm The fact that this map exists is as big an indictment of American politics as anything I can think of.



https://www.facebook.com/messenger_medi ... 1509479410

The link says "Sorry, this content isn't available right now."

Consider yourself spared, Chud.

I just don’t understand why invading a country with the purpose of annexing it is supposed to be a good thing regardless of who does it or for what reasons. Even if the claim that it’s to liberate the populace from their Nazi government was completely true (which I do not believe at all but will go with for sake of argument), what’s with putting themselves in control over it and annexing it? Speaking as a trans woman in the US I would very much love if I were “liberated” from the shitty government I’m forced to live under, but not if it’s just going to be replaced by another force that rolls in that the populace has no say in. And for all of Russia’s anti-nazi claims, their own government is ramping up a genocide of queer people and I really don’t understand at all how any leftists can support them. They’re not even the USSR anymore, like it’s genuinely boggling to me.

Hex wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:37 am I just don’t understand why invading a country with the purpose of annexing it is supposed to be a good thing regardless of who does it or for what reasons. Even if the claim that it’s to liberate the populace from their Nazi government was completely true (which I do not believe at all but will go with for sake of argument), what’s with putting themselves in control over it and annexing it? Speaking as a trans woman in the US I would very much love if I were “liberated” from the shitty government I’m forced to live under, but not if it’s just going to be replaced by another force that rolls in that the populace has no say in. And for all of Russia’s anti-nazi claims, their own government is ramping up a genocide of queer people and I really don’t understand at all how any leftists can support them. They’re not even the USSR anymore, like it’s genuinely boggling to me.

Thank you, Hex. Couldn't agree more.

It's got a long way to go (understatement on my part), but Ukraine's acceptance of queer culture (legally ok, socially, not so much aside from certain circles in a few big cities) is still light years ahead of Russia's.

For a minute there (during the same Western media blitz that seems to have convinced a certain forum member that this is mostly NATO's fault), Russia was claiming that Ukraine was being overrun by "gay Nazis" (can't make this up), so there was no choice but to invade and stop the decadence. (There's a piece in The Advocate about this very term from circa 2014.)

It’s going to be an “interesting experiment” to see the reaction of the US electorate to nothing in particular improving over the next 4 years. The best Republicans can hope for is a decent economic situation (which is already the case) and getting credit for it. But if Trump enacts those tariffs people will start hurting.

Almost everyone votes on the “general vibe” of the economy in every election, not ideology or identity. This time the vibe tipped it for Trump.

I understand the dissatisfaction with the centrist status quo, but what is the appeal of the fascist strong man? People are rubes who can't see through the populist horseshit? Sacrifice your political freedoms to fight a manufactured migrant crisis? The average asshole on the street here probably thinks Mussolini is a pasta.

dumbass wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:33 am Bernie Sanders: “It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that the working class has abandoned them.”

Dude is the only fearless politician with a big mic alive today. I wish he wasn't old. He would have won because he had big ideas and used the right narrative. The democrats sidelined him.

So, if you're an average american and you hear the democrats rally with a message like: "We'll cap the cost of insulin to $35" vs. Trump saying, "I'll deport all the immigrants", unfortunately, the second message resonates. Doesn't matter if the actual policy is good or would be executed.

A few things are pretty obvious at this point: being polished doesn't matter, consultants are worthless, campaigns are a waste of money, decorum and politeness are not necessary, and what you say doesn't really matter as long as it's big enough to get attention. If you can just make people feel like you will give them more money or hope, you will win.

It seemed like Kamala would start with an engaging messaging and then muddle it with boring policy details that didn't seem very bold at all. When she talks about healthcare and the message is a cap on a thing that most Americans don't have an experience with, it's not that exciting. When Bernie runs on healthcare for all, it's way more resonating. But the democrats can't do that, because they are beholden to the insurance industry, so it just proves that they aren't really going to do shit about it and their message falls flat. This is how all their messaging is.

The GOP runs on crazy ideas that should scare the shit out of everyone, but at the end of the day, the ideas are bigger and bolder. People can't afford to buy a house, have a family, etc... they want big, bold ideas because what exists today isn't working. And even though the GOP would be the foxes in the hen house, they are providing the big, bold ideas, no matter how terrible they are. But what we have right now isn't working, so the average American wants something to change.

cakes wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 10:05 am

dumbass wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:33 am Bernie Sanders: “It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that the working class has abandoned them.”

But what we have right now isn't working, so the average American wants something to change.

Yes. And they know the Dems are not going to change anything. Harris literally said "I am happy with everything we (meaning Biden, and so therefore her as well) did, I'd change nothing." That's not the message anyone wanted to hear. So people took a gamble with Trump.

Gramsci wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:05 am

I was just texting my mom this exact thing before loading this page. This is exactly what's going on, it's not that hard to grasp. Democrats are still feckless, chasing the tails of Republicans, instead of looking inward and providing big, bold changes that actually address what Americans need and want. That's why the DNC will fight like tooth and nail to squash their left flank more than they do against Republicans. They always court republicans more than their own base. I was briefly fooled when Biden dropped out that the party would change, but once Kamala got her footing and the messaging was about technical small details, it felt very uninspiring. I thought Trump would lose because he's so awful and the American people would see that they deserve better than him. When he won, I just didn't understand how anyone could want his chaos again. But after a few days of processing it, it seems pretty clear that the only thing most Americans care about is their wallet, which is more complex that that simple statement: in a sense, sure, if gas prices are high, that's bad and people don't like it. But it also speaks to the fact that many people have nothing left due to the rising cost of living and stagnant wages. Democrats aren't providing big, inspiring ideas to fix those issues. Republicans are, even if their policies suck or that Trump is a felon and a racist and a moron.

We're fucked because the average american's woes are class-oriented. Neither side will address it, because they are owned by billionaires and corporations. Republicans are fine with using the fascist playbook and blaming the least fortunate for our problems. Democrats don't play that game, but they barely play the game right at all.