The way how the GOP was ultimately taken over by MAGA needs to happen with the DNC but obviously with a smarter and more concerned movement. The DNC is dead and if they try to come back they'll be coming back with the same bullshit. It's obvious they cannot be trusted. Fool me once and all that.

zorg wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:25 am

cakes wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 9:41 am Democrats can't win on small, incremental changes. And frankly, the small, incremental changes haven't changed anyone's economic position that aren't wealthy.

I'm no economist, but also isn't GDP a woefully outdated means of evaluating anything when the wealth gap is staggering and only getting worse?

That's like when my sister in-law during Trump's first time was like, "isn't the economy great!" and I asked her how her stock portfolio was doing, and she shut the fuck up.

rsmurphy wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:29 am The way how the GOP was ultimately taken over by MAGA needs to happen with the DNC but obviously with a smarter and more concerned movement. The DNC is dead and if they try to come back they'll be coming back with the same bullshit. It's obvious they cannot be trusted. Fool me once and all that.

It's a hard pill to swallow, but this is true. The democrats have had their heads in their asses for decades and still don't get it. The GOP does and have proven to be willing to be reckless in the pursuit of power. Tie that with the general human concept that a harder path is usually the right way, so most people take the easier path, here we are.

I think a huge number of people are just in denial about how awful so many people are. I’ve been sexually assaulted by a friend of a friend “who isn’t usually like that, she must have been on drugs”, seen serial rapists continue to get gigs in my local scene after being outed, I have men sexually harass me when out walking and then threaten me when I ignore them. I once got invited over to a local musician’s place once for dinner and he unprompted started talking about how Black people are in their situation because they’re lazy and inferior. I could go on for fucking days. assholes as far as the eye can see. Ask any Trump voter who supported him because of the “economy” what they think about Black people or trans people. Notice how that is *never* something asked in all those garbage “we went out into the heart of America and had lunch with Trump supporter” garbage articles. We are literally watching what happened in Nazi Germany over again, the Republicans using the same playbook with a different primary scapegoat (notably, trans and queer people were also vehemently attacked by the Nazis as “degenerates”, a word that has made an incredible comeback by today’s right-wing), and people are still deluding themselves that going down the same path is going to somehow do shit

penningtron wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:12 am

cakes wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 9:41 am So, the only optimism to find here is that when things get worse--and they will, because they did last time--then the only people to blame will be those in charge. At least that has historically been the trend in politics, and it certainly ended Trump's first term.

Someone talk me off a ledge and tell me what's stopping them, with their slim Senate majority, from ending the filibuster, or packing the courts? They aren't actually concerned with upholding constitutional or legal norms, they're interested in permanent minority rule. It's hard having any faith in "this means we will be able to get them next time!" talk.

Minority rule? He won the popular vote this time. This is America now.

zorg wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:25 am

cakes wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 9:41 am Democrats can't win on small, incremental changes. And frankly, the small, incremental changes haven't changed anyone's economic position that aren't wealthy.

I'm no economist, but also isn't GDP a woefully outdated means of evaluating anything when the wealth gap is staggering and only getting worse?

GDP and the stock market as indicators of the health of the economy are beyond irrelevant now. Theyre ludicrously detached from everyday experience. In the UK you have the insane cognitive dissonance of house prices… they are nuts here, especially in London but even “progressive” media like the Guardian jump on any drop as a sign of government policy going badly. The cost of housing is one of the biggest drags on living standards for everyone.

penningtron wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:12 am

cakes wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 9:41 am So, the only optimism to find here is that when things get worse--and they will, because they did last time--then the only people to blame will be those in charge. At least that has historically been the trend in politics, and it certainly ended Trump's first term.

Someone talk me off a ledge and tell me what's stopping them, with their slim Senate majority, from ending the filibuster, or packing the courts? They aren't actually concerned with upholding constitutional or legal norms, they're interested in permanent minority rule. It's hard having any faith in "this means we will be able to get them next time!" talk.

I think they can try all those shenanigans, but they'd literally have to get rid of elections and suspend the constitution, otherwise the Dems could win and have the same power. The only thing holding both parties back is this basic idea. I honestly believe that probably 30% of the electorate would be fine with it, but it would probably cause riots and violence, and if the response is to use the military, then we are set for the end of the country.

I dunno, I have kids and I'm living a pretty normie life at the moment, and I don't think most Trump supporters are going to want to actually deal with these consequences when it becomes a reality when I think of others like me in that respect. Get rid of the department of ed? And replace it with what? Everyone wants their children educated. Get rid of SS and what? Do we all get a refund? You're telling me that people who voted for Trump because of the price of eggs will be cool with SS ending and not getting any of that money back?

I guess what I'm saying is, we're in uncharted waters and our only guidance is our own history.

penningtron wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:12 am Someone talk me off a ledge and tell me what's stopping them, with their slim Senate majority, from ending the filibuster, or packing the courts? They aren't actually concerned with upholding constitutional or legal norms, they're interested in permanent minority rule. It's hard having any faith in "this means we will be able to get them next time!" talk.

Only direct action will provide any opposition. That's the reality.

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Only direct action will provide any opposition. That's the reality.

This, there is no skirting around it.

People seem to think that fascists have some kinds of principles that can be appealed to when their entire language is power and control. Why the fuck does *anyone* think these serial liars and manipulators give a shit about arbitrary, intangible “norms” of law or morality? As a matter of fact, why should *anyone* give a shit about these concepts if this is what adhering to them in the face of an opposition who only cares about themselves gets you? Fuck law, fuck morality, they are distractions that cause people to place abstract concepts over actual, tangible consequences. I don’t need a fucking moral code to look at people undergoing genocide and be enraged at their pain. What this shit is good for though, is convincing people that “they go low, we go high”, is an admirable quality to stick to as fascists trod onward unimpeded and slaughter marginalized people

rsmurphy wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:29 am The way how the GOP was ultimately taken over by MAGA needs to happen with the DNC but obviously with a smarter and more concerned movement. The DNC is dead and if they try to come back they'll be coming back with the same bullshit. It's obvious they cannot be trusted. Fool me once and all that.

Never going to happen - see the last two Sanders presidential primaries. The only time the liberals and the DNC show any backbone is to crush any left movements popping up within their orgs. They are more than happy to throw an election before capitulating to any of that.

By its very design, the right doesn’t have any issues with new candidates not being aligned with the elite, so the pressure to defend against grassroots movements isn’t at all the same. They can co-opt most anything that comes up and quietly sweep anything else under the rug.