Meanwhile, I don't agree w/everything in here, but I found this to be a pretty thoughtful take on the current situation. W/talk of actual realistic solutions, as opposed to just bellyaching, cherry-picked, and distracting (not to mention Putin-parroting) bullshit about phantom "Nazis" that appeal to outdated WWII emotions rather than to the reality of the situation:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/17/opin ... a-war.html

(Lemme know if anyone wants this copied from behind the paywall.)

The writer smartly touches on the paradox of NATO or no-NATO, as well as the irony of Ukraine, out of benevolence and deference to Russia, giving up a massive stockpile of nukes that it could have used as a threat to prevent exactly what's happening now (thanks, Bill Clinton).

Sort of explains how on one hand, the U.S. supports what most ordinary Ukrainians have wanted for decades, but on the other hand, the U.S. does so cynically and weakly, in a half-assed proxy war. B/c what most Ukrainians want from their country also happens to conveniently annoy Russia. But then America doesn't deliver nearly enough follow-thru to actually make good on its promises. W/Ukraine caught in the middle. And how this has been going on for like 30 fucking years.

As a (first generation) Ukrainian American, I wouldn't give a shit about losing Crimea and chunks of the Donbas (Ukraine's Rustbelt crossed w/Ukraine's West Virginia, ie post-industrial hell) for this fucking war to end ASAP.

On the other hand, short of joining NATO or becoming a Belarus-style Putin puppet state, how to you guarantee that Russia doesn't attack again the minute that Ukraine does something Russia doesn't like? (For a far softer example, see the article upthread I posted about how Russia manipulates the Republic of Georgia's wine market, even today.)

Russia already broke that promise twice after signing the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, supposedly guaranteeing it would never attack Ukraine, including Crimea, in exchange for Ukraine giving up the aforementioned nukes it could have used as a counterweight.

Again, Russia absolutely cannot be trusted as far as Ukraine is concerned. Never could be. About the only thing it seems to understand is brute force, as Afghanistan exhibited. At the same time, the current situation is also completely awful and very much unsustainable.

Yeah, the US clearly fucked Ukraine on that deal. However, wasn't that with Yeltsin?

Krev wrote: Yeah, the US clearly fucked Ukraine on that deal. However, wasn't that with Yeltsin?

Yeah. Yeltsin, Clinton, and Kuchma signed it in 1994.

Funny thing about the Budapest Memorandum is that Ukraine didn't trust Russia even back then. Kuchma initially wanted the U.S. to offer Ukraine a security guarantee of intervention (in case Russia went back on its word) in exchange for giving up those nukes. (Ukraine had the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, supposedly.) The U.S. refused but, in the interest of creating a more peaceful world w/fewer weapons, Ukraine agreed to a weaker agreement (that still required Russia to indefinitely respect its borders) and took Russia at its word, under pressure from Clinton. Big mistake.

So forget all this NATO and "Nazi" crap. Even in 1994, Ukraine didn't trust Russia and wanted stronger security guarantees from the West, which wasn't about to offer them. Ukraine—having been brutally occupied and mistreated for so long—was nervous and suspicious from the get-go.

And Russia had already stationed troops in Abkhazia (part of the Republic of Georgia), de-facto occupying that region since 1992—but only after bombing the ethnically Georgian villages there. This was after Russia had propped up a breakaway fake "republic" called Transdniestria w/in Moldova starting in 1990. Basically, even when Russia was weak and fucked up, it still bullied its neighbors the minute they broke from Soviet occupation. And it still can't accept its Cold War losses. If that ain't imperialism defined, I'm not sure what is.

kokorodoko wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:06 pm So as to not only be angry, this was posted a few days after the election. Take it in.

https://daryazorka.substack.com/p/hope- ... less-times

In a sea of them, this is the most disheartening of all post-election takes. Fuck me.

It took literally 30 seconds of googling to learn that the “anti-Nazi glorification” UN proposal was as legit as a Moms for Liberty “anti-sex abuse” proposal. Literally 30 seconds.

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 4:15 am

kokorodoko wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:06 pm So as to not only be angry, this was posted a few days after the election. Take it in.

https://daryazorka.substack.com/p/hope- ... less-times

In a sea of them, this is the most disheartening of all post-election takes. Fuck me.

Huh. On me it made the opposite impression. Sorry for unintentionally lowering your spirits lol.

kokorodoko wrote:

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 4:15 am

kokorodoko wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:06 pm So as to not only be angry, this was posted a few days after the election. Take it in.

https://daryazorka.substack.com/p/hope- ... less-times

In a sea of them, this is the most disheartening of all post-election takes. Fuck me.

Huh. On me it made the opposite impression. Sorry for unintentionally lowering your spirits lol.

A little of both for me. On one hand, it took eight fucking years for this woman to win her case. And if anyone's primed to see ugly parallels between authoritative regimes, it's someone from Belarus.

On the other, she did end up winning in the end, and I'm not sure that even Trump will dissolve the laws that allowed her to do so. (Although this is a battle she never should have had to fight in the first place. And such laws seem to decreasingly apply to guys in Trump's economic demographic.)

Just anecdotal, but I know three people from Eastern Ukraine. One of them indeed thinks this war is all NATO's fault. She's from an ethically Russian family. She's also... way into Trump b/c he supports "business" and she thinks NYC became "dirty and depressing" after the pandemic, and that he will somehow "clean it up" (and the war). She's mentioned that America allows "too many Muslims" into the country right now, as well. Go figure...

The other two are not Trump supporters, and seem to be enjoying life in the city. They think the war is Putin's fault and has more to do w/economic stuff (mainly, Ukraine's refusal to join Russia's Eurasian Economic Union w/uh, Belarus and Kazakhstan; along w/the Budapest Memorandum, this financial fact is handy to throw in the face of the it's-all-NATO's-fault crowd), age-old Russian imperialism (I should emphasize that one of these dudes can't even speak Ukrainian, so he's not exactly a nationalist), and most young people seeing their future in the EU and not in Russia's orbit.

One guy is ethnically Russian, and the other is ethnically Ukrainian. One came here just before the invasion of Crimea (b/c he saw it coming) and the other split after the occupation of Crimea and Donbas (but before the most recent invasion) b/c a gang of pro-Putin dudes beat the shit out of him and threatened his family over his opinions and Ukrainian ethnicity.

Again, these are only three examples in a very complex situation, but the political math is fairly simple.

kokorodoko wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 9:55 am Huh. On me it made the opposite impression. Sorry for unintentionally lowering your spirits lol.

If I could see the people fighting, who are being encouraged to 'continue' fighting, then sure. Rouse away.

Curry Pervert wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 4:09 pm 2006, and if you'd have pulled this nazi apologist shit back then you'd have been dragged by half the board.

Yeah and y'all were fine with Chris Hall back then despite the fact that even a klutz like me could tell he was a shady arrogant douche when I joined in 2009. Maybe "the past" isn't some kind of benchmark for "good." Hey what happened to all the women who used to post here?

C'mon, being a jerk about it isn't exactly productive.

I'm not insinuating that I don't think Ukraine has a far-right and Nazi resurgence problem - most of the western world does at this point. That's obvious. But your posts, and maybe I'm missing the intent, come across as a bit edgelordy and contrarian to the tune of "both sides have bad people, so maybe Russia isn't wrong." Apologies if that's not your intent.

you've had that one in the chamber for 16 years. fuck off with it.