seby wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 6:51 am
The downside is the super high cost of living. Salaries are high, but a pint of been is around $8.50(USD), and rent is easily $450(USD) per week in Sydney.

$450 for a room? What exactly?

This sounds about like Los Angeles. If the streets are smoothly paved, you have zip to complain about.

I think "countries" are so fragile and volatile at the moment that my gut feeling is that it's probably a mistake to look at them like this. After the UK's Brexit referendum, so many of my European relatives and friends were bewildered (at times, verging - understandably - on smugness or contempt) at how Britain could do that to itself, the cultural values of the UK etc etc, but in the near decade since then, most of their "countries" have lurched to the right, tightened their immigration policy, or had very near-misses with far-right parties gaining a significant share of democratic power. Nowhere is immune. I'm not convinced that good people "shopping around" for a "good country" is going to work, or end well. If anything, I think it will eventually give more power to those who want more controls on immigration, both in their old homes and their new ones.

A lot of the problems in big European cities are exacerbated by (relatively) wealthy tourists and more recently, "digital nomads". People airbnb-ing their flats, more business aimed at that clientele that locals can't afford. Sure, it brings in money, but at the cost of a lot of what was there before. Lisbon, Porto, Barcelona, Berlin, lots of anger about communities being broken up/priced out by wealthy foreigners, most of them not the "super rich", but good people wanting exactly what makes those places great, and an escape from their own country. In the UK, this has happened with second homes in "holiday" parts of the country, making some of the most beautiful "holiday" places also some of the worst hit for those on lower incomes, with fuck all real future for a lot of people growing up there.

EDIT: plus something like Brexit or Trump can very quickly fuck with people's leave-to-remain status. The country you've fled brings in some shitty spiteful new curb, and everyone else reciprocates, and suddenly the people who've fled that regime have no status in their new country.

Dudley wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 9:46 am I think "countries" are so fragile and volatile at the moment that my gut feeling is that it's probably a mistake to look at them like this. After the UK's Brexit referendum, so many of my European relatives and friends were bewildered (at times, verging - understandably - on smugness or contempt) at how Britain could do that to itself, the cultural values of the UK etc etc, but in the near decade since then, most of their "countries" have lurched to the right, tightened their immigration policy, or had very near-misses with far-right parties gaining a significant share of democratic power. Nowhere is immune. I'm not convinced that good people "shopping around" for a "good country" is going to work, or end well. If anything, I think it will eventually give more power to those who want more controls on immigration, both in their old homes and their new ones.

A lot of the problems in big European cities are exacerbated by (relatively) wealthy tourists and more recently, "digital nomads". People airbnb-ing their flats, more business aimed at that clientele that locals can't afford. Sure, it brings in money, but at the cost of a lot of what was there before. Lisbon, Porto, Barcelona, Berlin, lots of anger about communities being broken up/priced out by wealthy foreigners, most of them not the "super rich", but good people wanting exactly what makes those places great, and an escape from their own country. In the UK, this has happened with second homes in "holiday" parts of the country, making some of the most beautiful "holiday" places also some of the worst hit for those on lower incomes, with fuck all real future for a lot of people growing up there.

EDIT: plus something like Brexit or Trump can very quickly fuck with people's leave-to-remain status. The country you've fled brings in some shitty spiteful new curb, and everyone else reciprocates, and suddenly the people who've fled that regime have no status in their new country.

I'm convinced that a 'good period' in any country may only be a handful of lucky decades. Empires fall etc. etc.

Expat shopping is a relevant sidebar here, but not my entire intention in starting the thread. I'm just as interested in gazing at relatively stable, culturally flourishing countries purely in admiration, if not in hopes to mimic policies. Maybe a little Polly Anna/Ted Lasso of me, but if for every wing nut starting a conversation talking about what a pile of shit Cuba is (or whatever other place they feel like demonizing without having visited) we had an educated person, or world traveler saying, "Have you ever thought of visiting x? It's kind of an amazing place."

Dudley wrote: I'm not convinced that good people "shopping around" for a "good country" is going to work, or end well.

Totally.

Portugal, for example, was a lot more affordable and less crowded in the '90s and '00s, before so many people caught on. Lisbon is still an incredibly charming city, but there's a hectic and internationalized quality to the immediate center that you never used to experience. This is even more apparent to me in Porto b/c the core is much more compact, and it once had a seductively rough-around-the-edges vibe that you never found in Lisbon. Ironically, making both cities more like everywhere else than they once were. Plus, so many Portuguese can no longer afford to live anywhere w/in spitting distance of their own centers. As someone who's been to Portugal five times, we kept hearing this again and again post-pandemic. And personally, I don't wanna live in a place full of overpriced coffee shops teeming w/digital nomads, even though a handful of such people often make for agreeable enough company and variety. But it tends to feel samey.

This also holds true for cities such as Barcelona, Amsterdam, Dubrovnik...

That said, complaining about it to death is also a huge failure of imagination. There's a whole lot of Portugal (and Spain, and Holland, and Croatia) and even neighborhoods in Lisbon where relatively few foreigners live or even visit, and it's an amazing, amazing country. But those aren't necessarily gonna be to everyone's tastes, they're not as universally appealing, convenient, or full of wow-factor architecture and restaurants. A city like Chaves is fucking wonderful to visit, but I don't necessarily need to live or work there.

Anyway, I dunno. America has never been the greatest country in the world contrary to all that exceptionalist nonsense. But it's also far from the pits contrary to the endless whining about it. Regardless of who's in power. I suppose it also depends on where you live, as NYC's meatgrinder often seems to operate via a different motor than the rest of the country's. But as someone who travels an awful lot, life seems just as hard or much worse in a sizable chunk of the world. And life being easier doesn't always translate as stimulating.

I do like Lisbon a ton, but I dunno if I could live there nowadays. I also adore Tokyo, but I doubt it would be much more accommodating than where I already reside (probably less). I've always thought Scandinavia was very sane and sensible, but MrsEaster finds it boring and homogenous, plus those countries don't exactly have open-door immigration policies for middle-class Americans or those not seeking "real" political asylum.

enframed wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 9:42 am

seby wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 6:51 am
The downside is the super high cost of living. Salaries are high, but a pint of been is around $8.50(USD), and rent is easily $450(USD) per week in Sydney.

$450 for a room? What exactly?

This sounds about like Los Angeles. If the streets are smoothly paved, you have zip to complain about.

Ah no that would be for a place for one’s self. And rather smooth yes : )

I just got back from China and am tempted to say... China.

Spent most of my first week in the Suzhou area... east of the CBD in the industrial park. An area that was barely developed when I was there eight years ago is now full of skyscrapers. And it was the first time I actually felt safe and comfortable in China.

But obviously they are not doing this quietly. So nevermind.

jfv wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 9:39 am I just got back from China and am tempted to say... China.

Spent most of my first week in the Suzhou area... east of the CBD in the industrial park. An area that was barely developed when I was there eight years ago is now full of skyscrapers. And it was the first time I actually felt safe and comfortable in China.

But obviously they are not doing this quietly. So nevermind.

Is this a wind-up, or have I lost my sense of humour?

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 9:57 am

jfv wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 9:39 am I just got back from China and am tempted to say... China.

Spent most of my first week in the Suzhou area... east of the CBD in the industrial park. An area that was barely developed when I was there eight years ago is now full of skyscrapers. And it was the first time I actually felt safe and comfortable in China.

But obviously they are not doing this quietly. So nevermind.

Is this a wind-up, or have I lost my sense of humour?

?

I was genuinely and pleasantly surprised by my recent visit there. That's all.

Kicking ass!

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/c ... ters/china

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 11:00 am Kicking ass!

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/c ... ters/china

This all factors into why I was genuinely and pleasantly surprised by my recent visit.