llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:32 pm Somebody posting something on the internet you don’t like isn’t “the left.”

You don't know those guys? I do. Definitely not what I want from the left, but it's a contingent. That's both the strength and weakness of a big tent, amorphous political wing. It contains multitudes. But if you're saying that's not representative of any significant group of politically engaged leftists, I say good news to that.

zorg wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 7:07 pm

losthighway wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 5:06 pm A fucking psycho burned innocent people.

I don’t equate, a “psycho” who has obviously lost the plot, with a coordinated and fully legitimized global effort by elected officials and their constituents to finally eradicate an already stateless people with the most sophisticated weaponry ever produced. If you do, you’d be mistaken.

No one could equate them. That was never an argument here. You shouldn't diminish one person's suffering by rhetorically contrasting it to millions of other people's.

losthighway wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:05 pm

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:32 pm Somebody posting something on the internet you don’t like isn’t “the left.”

You don't know those guys? I do. Definitely not what I want from the left, but it's a contingent. That's both the strength and weakness of a big tent, amorphous political wing. It contains multitudes. But if you're saying that's not representative of any significant group of politically engaged leftists, I say good news to that.

Something that always stands out to me about “the left” in the US is his little economics is ever discussed. It’s almost always around stuff like Gaza or identity. Is that what it’s really like, or am I just getting a false impression from the media.

Gramsci wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 1:58 am

losthighway wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:05 pm

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:32 pm Somebody posting something on the internet you don’t like isn’t “the left.”

You don't know those guys? I do. Definitely not what I want from the left, but it's a contingent. That's both the strength and weakness of a big tent, amorphous political wing. It contains multitudes. But if you're saying that's not representative of any significant group of politically engaged leftists, I say good news to that.

Something that always stands out to me about “the left” in the US is his little economics is ever discussed. It’s almost always around stuff like Gaza or identity. Is that what it’s really like, or am I just getting a false impression from the media.

oh, no. it's teh left, teh right and teh center too.

it seems like they all scream how they live like shit but every damn term is "can this trans person compete in teh olympics or did I just pee near to trans person did he/she/they try to rape me!?"

Lu Zwei wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 5:21 am

Gramsci wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 1:58 am

losthighway wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:05 pm

You don't know those guys? I do. Definitely not what I want from the left, but it's a contingent. That's both the strength and weakness of a big tent, amorphous political wing. It contains multitudes. But if you're saying that's not representative of any significant group of politically engaged leftists, I say good news to that.

Something that always stands out to me about “the left” in the US is his little economics is ever discussed. It’s almost always around stuff like Gaza or identity. Is that what it’s really like, or am I just getting a false impression from the media.

oh, no. it's teh left, teh right and teh center too.

it seems like they all scream how they live like shit but every damn term is "can this trans person compete in teh olympics or did I just pee near to trans person did he/she/they try to rape me!?"

I'd say it's a common weakness in American politics to a degree. Even more severe on the right but it's fair to say the centrality of the economy in the question of justice can be inconsistent from the left. I mean, most people run with some shit about "jobs" in their spiel, but when it comes to vociferous debate from the public there's much more time spent on identity issues and grievances. Corporate handouts and lobbying are pretty much hidden in plain sight.

losthighway wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 7:19 am

Lu Zwei wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 5:21 am

Gramsci wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 1:58 am

Something that always stands out to me about “the left” in the US is his little economics is ever discussed. It’s almost always around stuff like Gaza or identity. Is that what it’s really like, or am I just getting a false impression from the media.

oh, no. it's teh left, teh right and teh center too.

it seems like they all scream how they live like shit but every damn term is "can this trans person compete in teh olympics or did I just pee near to trans person did he/she/they try to rape me!?"

I'd say it's a common weakness in American politics to a degree. Even more severe on the right but it's fair to say the centrality of the economy in the question of justice can be inconsistent from the left. I mean, most people run with some shit about "jobs" in their spiel, but when it comes to vociferous debate from the public there's much more time spent on identity issues and grievances. Corporate handouts and lobbying are pretty much hidden in plain sight.

Interesting. I was watching a conversation between a couple of people online and I was amazed that the "far left" was only spoken about in terms of Palestine and Trans issues (not even rights, just not being fully on board with everything some of the Trans community and allies are demanding). Not a single mention of the Far Left in economic, or anti war in general terms.

In the UK the Far Left is often associated with the Stop the War Coalition, and being very pro organized Labour, redistribution of wealth, public services and welfare. Identity issues are included of course, but it's very much not at the frontline of the left's demands. And that's not a "wait your turn" vibe, just an understanding that issues of race, sexuality and personal identity are all improved when people have a stronger economic foundation.

Gramsci wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:03 am In the UK the Far Left is often associated with the Stop the War Coalition, and being very pro organized Labour, redistribution of wealth, public services and welfare. Identity issues are included of course, but it's very much not at the frontline of the left's demands. And that's not a "wait your turn" vibe, just an understanding that issues of race, sexuality and personal identity are all improved when people have a stronger economic foundation.

That is basically my point, but you just put it in so eloquently and extendedly.

Lu Zwei wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:16 am

Gramsci wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:03 am In the UK the Far Left is often associated with the Stop the War Coalition, and being very pro organized Labour, redistribution of wealth, public services and welfare. Identity issues are included of course, but it's very much not at the frontline of the left's demands. And that's not a "wait your turn" vibe, just an understanding that issues of race, sexuality and personal identity are all improved when people have a stronger economic foundation.

That is basically my point, but you just put it in so eloquently and extendedly.

Yeah, that's pretty ideal to me. I think there's a large percentage of America that's very on board for that. I think people like AOC, Sanders, and even more in the center, Buttigieg are looking at how if you speak to wealth, public services and welfare clearly you can bring in a lot more people.

There's something of a chicken-or-the-egg element to the prevalence of the culture war side of things. The right wing has been masterful at stoking racist, nativist, homophobic and transphobic sentiments, but perhaps even more so painting the left as somehow fringey or extreme in our defense against that kind of garbage. This takes up a lot of oxygen in the room because you find yourself passionately arguing about how people should be able to use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable in and broader policy keeps drifting out of focus. It doesn't need to be one, or the other, but something about our cultural situation allows one conversation to successfully eclipse issues that effect everyone.

Lu Zwei wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:16 am

Gramsci wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:03 am In the UK the Far Left is often associated with the Stop the War Coalition, and being very pro organized Labour, redistribution of wealth, public services and welfare. Identity issues are included of course, but it's very much not at the frontline of the left's demands. And that's not a "wait your turn" vibe, just an understanding that issues of race, sexuality and personal identity are all improved when people have a stronger economic foundation.

That is basically my point, but you just put it in so eloquently and extendedly.

It's come up a few times here, but the US political spectrum is pretty much Center to Right, and as already mentioned heavily subsidized by the wealthy. So not surprisingly there is limited interest in promoting any of that. There is no money in it. Simply put we have one of worst wealth gaps in the world for a reason. I don't think it's a stretch that the fractured nature and emotional draw of the special interests is a helpful distraction to keep people occupied with tangential issues that allow the broader problems to persist and worsen. It also allows them to get poor people to vote for the anointed without offering a material reward. Additionally, I blame social media, personal indebtedness, and general intellectual decline.

Lads, let's please remember that Serial Rapist and Predator Bill Clinton (I like to use his full title) divorced the Democratic Party from its roots in organized labor and working class concerns. Instead they embraced the Finance Bros, Big Tech, Big Pharma, China, and to a lesser degree, Hollywood money. And here we are: The Democratic Party is now a pinata stuffed with half-baked "welfare reform" efforts and a soggy culture war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way

New Labour and Tony Blair tailgated Clinton so closely that they followed the next President right into Iraq.

When you have a party devoid of any principles, you're forced to dance to whatever tune your opponent plays. The Republicans trumpet their nativist, racialist, homophobic platform, and the Democrats are left having to respond from a place with no firm anchor and zero policy achievements to point to. "At least we're not those guys" loses every time.

Most LibDems are aesthetically motivated. They don't disagree with deportations, technocratic domination, consumerism, and the abandonment of the working class, they just want to make sure it isn't done by a fat guy in a bad suit.

Useless.