People always seem to take the extreme view on all of this.
Sensibly consumed, organically produced meat is neither a danger to your health or the health of the planet. Good animal husbandry provides an ethical dimension as well. Not all meat eaters are McDs guzzling SUV drivers. As an ex-vegie I resent all of the "moral" posturing with which a lot of vegies approach the issue.
There is nothing wrong, unhealthy, anti-environmental or immoral about occasionally eating a well cared for, sustainably farmed animal.
Eating: Vegetarianism
102Gramsci - you and I have gone around on this and I think we know where the other stands. I completely respect your point and your support of responsible farmers.
But just to make my point clearer, why I still do not beleive in eating meat. I just plain think it's wrong to kill animals and eat their meat. Yes, nature is cruel and a pig or something will probably live a better fuller and most likely longer life being raised for meat than in the wild, I don't think it's up to us to make that choice.
Similar to the death penalty (and NO I'm NOT trying to make much of a comparison but....) I do beleive there are people who should fucking goddamn die. Yes, I do. Racist bigot murderer-rapist assholes that the world would be better without. I don't support the death penalty because I don't think there's anyone (or group) who should be able to decide who those people are that should be put to death.... okay, a bit of a streach, but we are dealing with killing.......
What you're saying about moderation, etc could be said about smoking. A cigarette every now and then, say every other day, or a pipe by the fire around christmas time, whatever, it's not really going to be bad for you or the environment. However it's pretty rare that people actually practice smoking like that. Plus if they do, well.... cutting it out certainly wouldn't hurt them any.
I have been doing this for about two-thirds of my life. I remember way before Boca burgers when you had to go to the special store to by veggie-dogs, and when most people were convinced that if you didn't eat meat you had to pump yourself full of suppliments or you'd look like the living dead. The idea of eating meat seems so foreign to me I just can't imagine it. I really do try not to be all pretentious about it.
Oh fuck, that was long, sorry.
But just to make my point clearer, why I still do not beleive in eating meat. I just plain think it's wrong to kill animals and eat their meat. Yes, nature is cruel and a pig or something will probably live a better fuller and most likely longer life being raised for meat than in the wild, I don't think it's up to us to make that choice.
Similar to the death penalty (and NO I'm NOT trying to make much of a comparison but....) I do beleive there are people who should fucking goddamn die. Yes, I do. Racist bigot murderer-rapist assholes that the world would be better without. I don't support the death penalty because I don't think there's anyone (or group) who should be able to decide who those people are that should be put to death.... okay, a bit of a streach, but we are dealing with killing.......
What you're saying about moderation, etc could be said about smoking. A cigarette every now and then, say every other day, or a pipe by the fire around christmas time, whatever, it's not really going to be bad for you or the environment. However it's pretty rare that people actually practice smoking like that. Plus if they do, well.... cutting it out certainly wouldn't hurt them any.
I have been doing this for about two-thirds of my life. I remember way before Boca burgers when you had to go to the special store to by veggie-dogs, and when most people were convinced that if you didn't eat meat you had to pump yourself full of suppliments or you'd look like the living dead. The idea of eating meat seems so foreign to me I just can't imagine it. I really do try not to be all pretentious about it.
Oh fuck, that was long, sorry.
Eating: Vegetarianism
103n.c. wrote:
But just to make my point clearer, why I still do not beleive in eating meat. I just plain think it's wrong to kill animals and eat their meat.
Then use that as your argument -it's a valid one-, but stop saying the nonsense that follows:
What you're saying about moderation, etc could be said about smoking. A cigarette every now and then, say every other day, or a pipe by the fire around christmas time, whatever, it's not really going to be bad for you or the environment. However it's pretty rare that people actually practice smoking like that. Plus if they do, well.... cutting it out certainly wouldn't hurt them any.
You cannot compare a known active carcinogen with eating the occasional steak or thai fish curry etc. If you eat enough of anything it will do damage to your health, even sprouts. And besides anything you eat is almost aways a a risk increaser, not an active carcinogen. This is a huge difference.
To cut it short, argue that you think it is wrong to kill animals, not that it is unhealthy to eat meat and we wont have anu beef -pun intended-
Eating: Vegetarianism
104Who died and made you the how Nathan can argue police?
I think it would be physically impossible to eat an unhealthy amount of sprouts.
Red meat is a known health risk.
I think it would be physically impossible to eat an unhealthy amount of sprouts.
Red meat is a known health risk.
Eating: Vegetarianism
105n.c. wrote:Who died and made you the how Nathan can argue police?
I think it would be physically impossible to eat an unhealthy amount of sprouts.
Red meat is a known health risk.
The key word is risk which not a cause.
All I'm saying is if you are going to advocate a vegie-vegan diet argue from a "I think killing animals is wrong" angle, because all of the health issues you point out are just strawman arguments, you approach meat eatting from the worst angle and most extreme -which is the norm for some people- and claim that that is how it is for all meat eating, which just isn't true.
I'm not say we should all eat meat the way the a lot of people do now; it's inefficient use of farm land and increases the risk of a number of diseases. but as I've said many times healthwise the moderate eating of organic meat is not going to cause a risk increase that would be measureable.
Eating: Vegetarianism
106My argument is that we currently have health issues in this country that are directly related to consuming animal products in an unhealthy way.
I don't have issues with the way YOU eat meat (except the killing part). But visit a McDonalds sometime. Just sit there in the parking lot and watch people go in and out. Then tell me that part of this counrty's obeasity epidemic is not directly linked to abusing animal products.
My goddamn grandfather died prematurely largely because he loved all forms of meat. For him it was worth it.
I don't have issues with the way YOU eat meat (except the killing part). But visit a McDonalds sometime. Just sit there in the parking lot and watch people go in and out. Then tell me that part of this counrty's obeasity epidemic is not directly linked to abusing animal products.
My goddamn grandfather died prematurely largely because he loved all forms of meat. For him it was worth it.
Eating: Vegetarianism
107i've been a vegetarian for about 5 years now. i hate preachy vegetarian/vegan people, but i also hate the attitude of many really pro-meat people. but i also understand that i've spent a lot of time and resources on educating myself on this matter, and most people aren't interested.
i believe there is nothing wrong with eating animals 'in theory', or you know, the native american way of hunting and all that shit. but the reality of it in the modern world is much different, with big business and fast food, etc. and when people think animals are here on this planet solely to be our food, that's fucking retarded. we are simply beings absorbing energy from wherever we can get it, we were not "meant" to eat animals, just as we're not especially "meant" to eat plants or anything else. that's just what was there and we evolved that way. everything and anything can be food for something. we'll take what we can get, and we just happen to be smart enough to recognize whats moral or not. and thats everybodys choice to make for themself. yes suffering occurs in nature when it comes to consumption, but everything about our lives is completely removed from the natural world anyway. so i say fuck that argument. just one man's opinion.
i believe there is nothing wrong with eating animals 'in theory', or you know, the native american way of hunting and all that shit. but the reality of it in the modern world is much different, with big business and fast food, etc. and when people think animals are here on this planet solely to be our food, that's fucking retarded. we are simply beings absorbing energy from wherever we can get it, we were not "meant" to eat animals, just as we're not especially "meant" to eat plants or anything else. that's just what was there and we evolved that way. everything and anything can be food for something. we'll take what we can get, and we just happen to be smart enough to recognize whats moral or not. and thats everybodys choice to make for themself. yes suffering occurs in nature when it comes to consumption, but everything about our lives is completely removed from the natural world anyway. so i say fuck that argument. just one man's opinion.
Eating: Vegetarianism
108Vegetarianism can only be sustained by taking supplements. It's crap. Forget about the morality or killing cute animals...
L-arginine can only be obtained through eating red meat and dairy products. It is a semi-essential amino acid that the body can produce, but under certain circumstances (illness, stress, genetics, veg diet) doesn't produce enough.
B-12 can only be obtained through animal sources.
Creatine is only found in red meat.
Conjugated Linoleic Acid is found in dairy and red meat.
Also, most HMOs and preventative medical organizations that benefit from keeping people healthy do not condone vegetarianism. If you belong to an HMO, they will give you a book of preventative care, first aid, etc. This is so that you won't come to the Dr. everytime you have the sniffles. They want you to stay healthy, because it saves them money. Whenever I read the nutrition section in one of these books, they never condone vegetarianism. Never under-estimate greed. They want you to keep healthy... It keeps them profitable. If there were compelling scientific evidence that vegetarianism was healthy, they would suggest it. They would probably test people for meat-eating and raise your co-pay if you ate meat. They don't. In fact, there are numerous studies that prove the longevity and higher-quality of life of omnivores.
Finally... A casual observation... I know several vegetarians... They're in their mid 30's, have wrinkled skin, and look about 5 years older than omnivores. They tend to eat more starches, which causes glycation (hardening of collagen in the skin due to excessive glucose -- this is simply an external sign of damage that is happening to internal organs as well). Also, they don't have enough protein in their diet to repair their skin or other organs.
I once got into this discussion with a vegetarian friend, and she sent me this URL of a vegetarian doctor. The funniest thing is this guy was in his 50's, and he looked like he was 75. Not much of a selling point. He was very skinny, though. One has to wonder what advantages (in terms of natural selection) being a skinny whimp has.
Then I also hear the myths -- meat stays in your colon for 7 years (I thought that was chewing gum! that's also a myth), we're not meant to eat meat, our digestive system isn't made for it... blah, blah...
Why else do we have canine teeth? Why does our stomach acid have the capability to break down meat? Why do our intestines break down the proteins into absorbable amino acids? Is this some sort of evolutionary accident? Did pre-civilization mankind sit around milling flour and baking bread? Turning soy beans into tofu? Yes, we can do this within the last 10,000 years, but since phenotypic evolutionary events take at least 100,000 years, it's clear no one has evolved to eat these foods. It is well know that humans evolved as hunter-gatherers. "Green" politics or mis-informed pseudo-science cannot change this.
As an aside, most of the vegetarians I know aren't really vegetarians. They eat fish, and have the occasional piece of chicken. They too can't stick with it. They crave meat. They just like to call themselves "vegetarians" to be different, and have some sort of moral upper hand. In certain areas of the country, it is considered cool to be a vegetarian. It's a counter-culture sort of trend.
Yes, it is more economically sustainable and geo-friendly to eat vegetation. It's also "green" to not drive a car, not have a house, not expel CO2 from your lungs...
Political-economic decisions cannot overcome millions of years of evolution. The proof is in the profits. HMO's spend millions to keep people healthy and keep them out of the doctor's office, off the operating table, and away from expensive drugs. I'd trust their interpretation of the data over some pre-mature senior citizen hippie doctor. Any day.
L-arginine can only be obtained through eating red meat and dairy products. It is a semi-essential amino acid that the body can produce, but under certain circumstances (illness, stress, genetics, veg diet) doesn't produce enough.
B-12 can only be obtained through animal sources.
Creatine is only found in red meat.
Conjugated Linoleic Acid is found in dairy and red meat.
Also, most HMOs and preventative medical organizations that benefit from keeping people healthy do not condone vegetarianism. If you belong to an HMO, they will give you a book of preventative care, first aid, etc. This is so that you won't come to the Dr. everytime you have the sniffles. They want you to stay healthy, because it saves them money. Whenever I read the nutrition section in one of these books, they never condone vegetarianism. Never under-estimate greed. They want you to keep healthy... It keeps them profitable. If there were compelling scientific evidence that vegetarianism was healthy, they would suggest it. They would probably test people for meat-eating and raise your co-pay if you ate meat. They don't. In fact, there are numerous studies that prove the longevity and higher-quality of life of omnivores.
Finally... A casual observation... I know several vegetarians... They're in their mid 30's, have wrinkled skin, and look about 5 years older than omnivores. They tend to eat more starches, which causes glycation (hardening of collagen in the skin due to excessive glucose -- this is simply an external sign of damage that is happening to internal organs as well). Also, they don't have enough protein in their diet to repair their skin or other organs.
I once got into this discussion with a vegetarian friend, and she sent me this URL of a vegetarian doctor. The funniest thing is this guy was in his 50's, and he looked like he was 75. Not much of a selling point. He was very skinny, though. One has to wonder what advantages (in terms of natural selection) being a skinny whimp has.
Then I also hear the myths -- meat stays in your colon for 7 years (I thought that was chewing gum! that's also a myth), we're not meant to eat meat, our digestive system isn't made for it... blah, blah...
Why else do we have canine teeth? Why does our stomach acid have the capability to break down meat? Why do our intestines break down the proteins into absorbable amino acids? Is this some sort of evolutionary accident? Did pre-civilization mankind sit around milling flour and baking bread? Turning soy beans into tofu? Yes, we can do this within the last 10,000 years, but since phenotypic evolutionary events take at least 100,000 years, it's clear no one has evolved to eat these foods. It is well know that humans evolved as hunter-gatherers. "Green" politics or mis-informed pseudo-science cannot change this.
As an aside, most of the vegetarians I know aren't really vegetarians. They eat fish, and have the occasional piece of chicken. They too can't stick with it. They crave meat. They just like to call themselves "vegetarians" to be different, and have some sort of moral upper hand. In certain areas of the country, it is considered cool to be a vegetarian. It's a counter-culture sort of trend.
Yes, it is more economically sustainable and geo-friendly to eat vegetation. It's also "green" to not drive a car, not have a house, not expel CO2 from your lungs...
Political-economic decisions cannot overcome millions of years of evolution. The proof is in the profits. HMO's spend millions to keep people healthy and keep them out of the doctor's office, off the operating table, and away from expensive drugs. I'd trust their interpretation of the data over some pre-mature senior citizen hippie doctor. Any day.
Eating: Vegetarianism
109Oh christ.
yut - you are a moron.
I will prove you wrong by beating your carnivorous little ass into fucking chutney.
Every last thing you said was dead wrong. I am living proof. 18 years 100% meat free, 2 years meat, eggs, and dairy free, not a suppliment at all.
Gaddamn it I'm really sick of this bullshit. I (and the rest of the vegetarian/vegans on the board) never fucking asked some dumbshit to start this poll. It's pretty hard not to defend yourself when called a fucking hippy for having a belief.
yut, go fucking die. Oh, and just out of curiosity.... and this will probably backfire, but what do you weigh?
yut - you are a moron.
I will prove you wrong by beating your carnivorous little ass into fucking chutney.
Every last thing you said was dead wrong. I am living proof. 18 years 100% meat free, 2 years meat, eggs, and dairy free, not a suppliment at all.
Gaddamn it I'm really sick of this bullshit. I (and the rest of the vegetarian/vegans on the board) never fucking asked some dumbshit to start this poll. It's pretty hard not to defend yourself when called a fucking hippy for having a belief.
yut, go fucking die. Oh, and just out of curiosity.... and this will probably backfire, but what do you weigh?
Eating: Vegetarianism
110some veggie people can not live as well as you, nc, without taking supplements. just cause you don't feel bad doesn't mean you're at optimum nutritional balance. but then eating meat is not all that wonderful either. i say get use to eating both just in case we run out of one or the other. or just scratch eating entirely.