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Rickey Henderson, a garaunteed 1st ballot Hall Of Famer, the greatest lead off hitter in history, averaged 47 RBIs/season.

Kenny Lofton, who might be the 2nd greatest leadoff hitter of all time behind Henderson, and another sure Hall Of Famer, averaged 49 RBIs/season.

well, ty cobb hit .367 lifetime.
he also had 892 sb.

Ty hit in the deadball era so his homerun totals are inconclusive. (even with that, pete only has 43 more).

RBI records were not kept until 1920, so ty's are not available.

Ty has more than double the triples.

In terms of hits, double and bb's. they are about equal.

Pete Rose hit against the best players available.
Ty Cobb hit against the best white players available.

This fact above makes charlie hustles 40 something hitting streak a lot more impressive than jolten joe's 50 something hitting streak.

If that asshole rose goes in, than so does shoeless joe, stats------
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats ... rID=116432

in terms of asshole cockidness, the georgia peach and charlie hustle are about equal.

By the way capnreverb, RBI stats have nothing to do with a baserunner getting home. That would be RUNS, not RUNS BATTED IN.

I'm sure, although I haven't looked it up, you'd find Pete Rose's RUNS stats very impressive.

capnreverb wrote:This fact above makes charlie hustles 40 something hitting streak a lot more impressive than jolten joe's 50 something hitting streak.

Whoa Whoa Whoa...wait a minute.

Pete Rose hit in 44 consecutive games in the days of the 5 man rotation. Pitching, and in an era of expansion...meaning there were more slots in Major League Baseball for mediocre pitchers. Although the pitching in 1978 wasn't by any means "BAD" like it is today, It wasn't what it was in 1941.

Pete Rose hit 7 homeruns the year he had the 44 game streak, and hit .302. Joe DiMaggio hit 30 homeruns the year of his 56 game hitting streak and hit .357 that year!

Joe D's slugging percentage that year was a whopping .643. Rose had a slugging percentage of .421.

And finally, 44 ain't 56. Peter Rose only got 79% of the way there.

I wish I could find a source for their stats during their respective hitting streak, but I'm sure they are starkly different, as were the stats in the seasons those streaks came in.

here's the deal.

while arguing about pete rose is fun, and currently in vogue, on simple fact remains, he will never get in.

bud selig will most likely put rose on a two year probation thus passing him on to the veterans committee where he has a snowballs chance.
when Mike Schmidt, supposedly your closest ally, and a bastard in his own right, calls you out, well you've got problems.

anyway, espn just had a deal where they ranked top five pitching staffs. here they are.

1. Astros
2. Yankees
3. Red Sox
4. A's
5. Cubs

yeah right, I hardly think houston is number 1. Roger Clemens does not make your pitching staff Number 1. Neither does Andy Pettite at Minute Maid park.

watch.

Ty Cobb is second all time with 2245
Rose is 5th with 2165
Rickey Henderson is the all time leader.

If Rose goes in, so does Shoeless. No question.

Pete is banned from baseball . He broke the only real cardinal rule in sports. He shows no guilt, remorse, or contrition. Fuck him.

The sportswriters wont vote him in, the HOF's wont either.

His book aint selling either. The times list is for shipped, not sold.

If he gets in just becuase he had great stats, thats sending a message saying that its ok to be a lying cheating bettor, just as long as your a good player.

I am not down with that.

If you hit .230 with 70 hits a season you are not allowed to break the cardinal rule.
If you hit .310 with 203 hits a season you are allowed to break the cardinal rule.
If you think this is ok, then you must believe pro wrestling is real.

Betting by players or managers makes you question whether what you are seeing is true. Gaylord Perry throwing a spit ball is not even in the same realm as betting on the game you are also playing in. Gaylord was trying to win, Rose was trying to win $.

If you think Rose should be in, then you must also believe that sports players and managers should be allowed to bet on the games they are participating in. There is no grey area. It is black and white.

He should not be let in.

ch029448 wrote:

capnreverb wrote:This fact above makes charlie hustles 40 something hitting streak a lot more impressive than jolten joe's 50 something hitting streak.

Whoa Whoa Whoa...wait a minute.

Pete Rose hit in 44 consecutive games in the days of the 5 man rotation. Pitching, and in an era of expansion...meaning there were more slots in Major League Baseball for mediocre pitchers. Although the pitching in 1978 wasn't by any means "BAD" like it is today, It wasn't what it was in 1941.

Pete Rose hit 7 homeruns the year he had the 44 game streak, and hit .302. Joe DiMaggio hit 30 homeruns the year of his 56 game hitting streak and hit .357 that year!

Joe D's slugging percentage that year was a whopping .643. Rose had a slugging percentage of .421.

And finally, 44 ain't 56. Peter Rose only got 79% of the way there.

I wish I could find a source for their stats during their respective hitting streak, but I'm sure they are starkly different, as were the stats in the seasons those streaks came in.

You missed my main point, and it only applied to the hitting streak.
Jolten Joe only faced white pitchers.
Charlie Hustle faced all pitchers.

Having only whites playing is as far greater thinning of talent than adding a few crappy expansion teams. Fact!!!!!!!!!

I would rather have joe over pete on my team any day. His overall stats are far more impressive, and he was not coursing the outcome of his game to gamblers.

OK...here's the problem. First of all, the pitching in the 40s was better than the pitching in the 70s, regardless of what color the pitchers were. That's a fact.

1978 was in baseball's 2nd expansion era, and the pitching was somewhat watered down. The pitching was worse in 78 and THAT's what is fact.

Besides, at the time, pitching was still a predominantly white position. The FACT is, there was ONE standout black or latino pitcher in all of baseball in 1978 and that was Vida Blue. The fact is Vida Blue, is NOT about to make anyone forget Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Hal Newhouser, and the other Hall Of Fame caliber pitchers that Joe DiMaggio had to face on a consistent basis.

Pete Rose was a helluva player - a real hitting machine. But there's no way, anything he'd done in his career comes close to the achievements of a Joe DiMaggio or a Ted Williams or a Jimmie Foxx or any of the premiere hitters of the 40s.

We can not just discount monumental achievements in baseball because there weren't minority players at some point in the past. I mean, did Barry Bonds and Mark MacGwire, in the "juiced ball", small ball park, extremely watered down pitching era we're in today really eclipse what Babe Ruth and Roger Maris in their days of better pitching, less games, and bigger ballparks, just because MacGwire and Bonds had to face a handful of black/latino pitchers? No way.

My only problem with Pete Rose not being in the Hall Of Fame (and it's really not that much of a problem, because I think the guy is an asshole) is that the HOF and MLB have no real official affiliation. The HOF is not governed by MLBs rules...and at least theoretically the HOF is strictly about what a player achieved on the field. So in that sense, I think Pete Rose should be IN. But, I agree that there is no more serious offense, that actually affects the integrity of the game ON THE FIELD, than gambling. And for that reason, I believe Pete's lifetime ban from any MLB position should stand.

By the way, Joe DiMaggio hit .409 during his streak!!!!!!!!! Also, Joe DiMaggio's streak ended at 56 when he went hitless against Cleveland, and then started another 16 game hitting streak the day after. So, the most amazing thing about Joe DiMaggio in 1941 was that he hit in 72 out of 73 games for a stretch that year.

BUT...here's a little bit of interesting trivia.

1941, the year of DiMaggio's streak, was a strike interrupted season. Several players then, including DiMaggio, played exhibition games against Minor League teams to keep their skills sharp during the strike. Joe DiMaggio actually went hitless in a game during the strike, in the middle of his streak, against some minor leaguers.

Um, last time I checked my baseball cards. Both Fergie Jenkins and J.R. Richard were black in 1978.

Both had 18 wins, both had era's right around 3, and that is the year where J.R. had 304 strikeouts.

PS, what were the hetters in the negro leaues pitching against? Pitching machines?

As far as black pitchers don't count. You might want to look at the stats of Juan Marichial or Bob Gibson for starters.