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Here's little food for thought for you neo-Reaganite pro-life Nazis.

Three Questions to ask yourself (of which I'm reasonably sure I know your answers)

Are you pro-life?
Are you concerned about inner city crime?
Are you opposed to welfare?


Good, now look yourself in the mirror and call yourself a hypocrite. And in case you're too shortsighted and driven by horseshit political soundbytes (like most good Republicans are) to link those three questions, then you're even worse off than I thought. What's worse, aborting a fetus, or bringing an unwanted child destined for psychological problems, and a life of crime and poverty into the world.

And for all you "Abortion Is Murder" theorists: Please tell me, in your infinite wisdom, where you've drawn the hardfast line. At what point does it become murder. I mean, everytime I jack off and blow my load into a paper towel, have I just committed genocide?

Again with the hilarity (these religious folk really amuse me):

"OK, some people need to realize that the length of time that you've lived doesn't make you any more of a real person."

Did someone argue that? I sure haven't seen anyone make that argument, and not just on this page, but anywhere.

"If you have any idea what a fetus looks like you would realize that it is indefinitely a real living human being."

Indefinitely, huh? Um, ok. You mean definitely, but really definitely, as opposed to sort of defintiely? Brilliant.

Anyway, in addition to making fun of your inability to use the language, I guess I should point out that the premise underlying your "argument" seems to be that if it looks like a human it is one. I assume, then, that you are also for giving rights to mannequins and wax dummies. Excuse me, but have you seen a 5 week old fetus? It looks like a fucking tadpole. It has a TAIL. A fucking TAIL. In St. Louis we have a monkey at the zoo that has no hair, and it looks disturbingly like a little man. I suppose that, according to your criterion, it is "indefinitely" a real living human being then. Good thinking there, hotshot.

Mercilessly, you continue, "If you dont think that "aborting a pregnancy" is cold blooded murder you are wrong."

Well, no arguing with that. Mostly because you aren't saying anything. What's the appropriate repsonse? Nanny nanny booboo?

"And who gave you the right to decide (whether or not a fetus is a real livivng person) to abort that person or soon to be persons chance at life."

I guess you mean that as a question, so I'll answer it. I gave that right to myself. I suppose you are unaware that you apparently think you have the right to decide that as well, but that you put the cutoff line at a different point (I assume conception).

"If you think it wouldn't matter I'm sure you wouldn't mind if you were aborted before birth."

This has got to be the DUMBEST thing that you pro-life idiots always say. YES, of fucking course, I wouldn't have minded if I were aborted, because I wouldn't have been aware of it. If I am in a persistent vegetative state I also won't mind if someone pulls the plug. At the same time, I won't care about what sort of music is playing, or whether I'm wearing a funny hat, or whether people are jabbing hot needles into my eyes. Sentience is really the issue, both for abortion and for euthanasia, despite people's attempts to say that the length of life is the issue. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

So go to bed now. It's sleepy time.

Defenestrator

Defensestrator - that was an OUTSTANDING, articulate, and accurate post.

With your permission, I'm going to copy and paste it to my own message board, which you (and all) are welcome to visit:

http://www.b2g2.com/boards/board.cgi?&u ... ewithsatan

Okay...here goes,

My greatest argument for legal and freely available abortion is that humans are inherently fucked as far as self-limiting population is concerned. This is gaining relevance with each passing year.

Certain species are inherently self-limiting. Wolves immediately come to mind; though this trait extends to many species in many families and orders. When a given group population reaches the carrying capacity of its environment - that species will stop reproducing until the capacity of the environment to support a larger population increases, or a local population decreases.

Humans, thus far, are incapable of self-limiting - much like lemmings, or locusts. Our archaic and backward religious and social institutions exacerbate this problem (coming problem). Our incapacity to recognize the danger of our behaviors, coupled with a social etiquette that implores us to "be fruitful and multiply" and "extend our legacy" has us on a road to disaster.

Excluding for a moment the common example of famine in east Africa, or crowded streets in Delhi (though apt examples); compare for a moment the population of the US in the 1950's. Couple that with the stereotype of the 50's being a wholly consumerist era. Now compare what you remember of your grandparents home, furnishings, cars, posessions from that era of 'conspicuous consumerism' with the current state in this country; SUV's, new 4500 square foot house in a new development, commuting and hour to hour and a half to work each way; aquiring more tech toys and electronics - technology whose life cycles are ever shorter and shorter; the average energy consumption of each American as a result of everything else. It is not hard to imagine that, well off as most of us are, the expectations we place on our standard of living coupled with our population growth does not pose well for a healthy future.

If we do not take an enlightened approach to self-limiting; nature or government may one day be forced do so in a way that is equally brutal and cruel (though more likely nature than government - say hello to a population riddled with cancer).

Until humans can fully acknowledge their true position in relation to nature, rather than denying the dependance and connection to it, we will not be self-limiting and will propel ever forth into a future of mass-extinction or cataclysm. We've been smart enough to avoid natural law for the past hundred years or so, but this can last for only so long.

This relates to abortion in that any resource our society offers people for self-limiting population is a good thing (including birth control, sterilization, familty planning - all voluntary and self-imposed, because people recognise its importance). An enlightened society will have hope for peaceable survival because each member's self-awareness takes on that burden of self-limiting - rather than leaving the limiting work to the brutality of nature or government.

Our religious institutions thwart this hope by extending archaic and once-relevant concepts in a doctrine that stifles logical analysis and dialogue. Their concern then as now is to provide as many bodies labeled 'christian', or 'islam' and willing to die for their hierarchy as possible. A strong, growing population was very important for the Judeans when survival was difficult and enemies were everywhere around Judea; as well as for other ancient cultures. The perpetuation of such poisonous belief structures may in fact result in a the veritable armageddon so many freak-ass evangelicals pray for.

Isn't it funny how the Pro-Choice arguments posted here are very articulate, to the point, and employ valid argument/debating techniques.

Whereas, most of the Pro-Life arguments read something along the lines of:

"It's Murder. God said so, in the bible."
"It's wrong....because...................................just because...!!!"

I wonder if there's any correlation there? Naaaahhhh!!!!

man geiginni, that was way too focused! you need to be more all over the place so it's harder to make any sense out of it!

seriously, something you only touched on was a population riddled with cancer. let's not forget that as our population is increasing at an ever-increasing rate, we're also tricking out our medecine so now instead of living to 30 we live to 80. continue both of those trends and think about how fun things will be in 100 years.

this is the part where i try and sound crazy, but i have such a strong supposition that something that drives the exploration of mars is not our desire to learn about sciencey stuff so much as it is to have a place to move on to since the earth is on the short track to being fucked beyond repair.

PS - defenstrator, do you write for a magazine or newspaper or anything? if not, you maybe should. it's creepy how there don't really seem to be mistakes in your post. just plain creepy! cheers.

Attention capnreverb

Dude, why are you wasting the good folks at EAs valuable internet resource by posting purile idiotic crap all over the place? Aren't you a truck driver? Don't you need to be somewhere else? Maybe your son would like some of your attention instead of giving it to this forum. Why is it of the 152 posts you've made you've chosen toilets, felching, porn, Michael Jackson, alcohol, and endless refences to your own goddamn opinion on...well, pretty much everything as the subjects? Why? Why?

Actually, forget I asked, cause really honestly I don't want to know.

bdp wrote:Attention capnreverb

Aren't you a truck driver? Don't you need to be somewhere else? Maybe your son would like some of your attention instead of giving it to this forum. Why is it of the 152 posts you've made you've chosen toilets, felching, porn, Michael Jackson, alcohol, and endless refences to your own goddamn opinion on...well, pretty much everything as the subjects? Why? Why?

That will look great on my headstone. Thanks.

Sincerly,
Lowest Common Denominator

toomanyhelicopters wrote:man geiginni, that was way too focused! you need to be more all over the place so it's harder to make any sense out of it!

This is a subject I've given considerable thought and debate to. It seems of supreme importance to future human thought paradigms. If I was to start a religion or 'movement' it would be based on this simple concept of self-limiting/population control.

Not only does this concept serve the survival of humanity, but also benifits the ecomonics and quality of life for the majority of the population. If you have a sustained (no-growth) population of educated people, old economic structures would become obsolete. I've often wondered if the whole anti-abortion, "be fruitful and multiply" philosophy doesn't perpetuate itself for the benifit of industrialists and oligarchs who benifit from a burdened population of idiots clamoring for mass-produced cheap shit products that they can afford - unaware of the quality of life they might realize if they had two kids at 30 rather than four by 21....

....Shopping trip to WalMart, anyone....?

bdp wrote:Attention capnreverb

Dude, why are you wasting the good folks at EAs valuable internet resource by posting purile idiotic crap all over the place? Aren't you a truck driver? Don't you need to be somewhere else? Maybe your son would like some of your attention instead of giving it to this forum. Why is it of the 152 posts you've made you've chosen toilets, felching, porn, Michael Jackson, alcohol, and endless refences to your own goddamn opinion on...well, pretty much everything as the subjects? Why? Why?

Actually, forget I asked, cause really honestly I don't want to know.

Say/rank/put down/make fun of/ whatever about me I don't care. Leave my son out of it.