It's really easy to draw the line. Watch all the tape, do all the high-tech workouts, dip all the snuff... just don't fucking cheat.

Ben Johnson won the Olympic gold medal in the 100 meters while pumped up w/obscene amounts of horse growth hormone or whatever the hell it was. When the truth came out, that gold medal got ripped off his neck. There were no silly arguments about where the line should be drawn since everyone had access to trainers, high-tech facilities, etc.

The really sad thing is that Barry Bonds had established a Hall of Fame career for himself even before he somehow added 30-40 lbs of mass to his body and hit 73 home runs in a season without even hitting 40 in any of his previous seasons.

on an ironic note, regarding steroids in baseball...

anybody else find it really, really fucked up that while GW was the Texas Rangers-boy, he never said shit about steroids... and then he brought it up in the state of the union address, horribly out of place and context? and now here we have action on it?

i find that both quite ironic and quite disturbing. what's the motivation behind bringing it up in the SOTU? was that *his* idea? and if so, why, and why now?

If a guy wants to take steroids with the health risks involved, so be it. That should be the deterring factor. Otherwise it makes only a small difference on the game. The players that were implicated in this most recent investigation other than the three allstars were Benito Santiago and Marvin Bernard. Those two can't hit for shit. The object still is to hit a round ball with a round bat squarely and HGH doesn't make that any easier. I don't think it adds a lot of distance to HR's either, Dave Kingman and Mickey Mantle could crush balls into the night but they weren't huge physically.

people always fetishize the past with regards to sports. we all do it. i mean, tracy mcgrady might be a better basketball player than dr. j was. but i would never admit that, if it's true. these things have a visceral impression on you when you are young that they rarely if ever have on you as an adult.

I agree. People always glorify the past, even more so with sports. But no fucking way T-Mac is better than Dr. J. Mcgrady is a skilled and gifted imitator whereas Julius is responsible for bringing artistry to the dunk.

toomanyhelicopters wrote:on an ironic note, regarding steroids in baseball...

anybody else find it really, really fucked up that while GW was the Texas Rangers-boy, he never said shit about steroids... and then he brought it up in the state of the union address, horribly out of place and context? and now here we have action on it?

i find that both quite ironic and quite disturbing. what's the motivation behind bringing it up in the SOTU? was that *his* idea? and if so, why, and why now?

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Most things in this world (and especially in politics) are done because of money. So I would venture to say that any mention/interjection of this matter into the SOTU address was probably monetarily driven.

Someone always has to make a buck. And when they aren't... or there is potential to increase capital... someone goes and tries to change things. In this case, bringing up the issue of steroid use.

I doubt someone just got a wild hair up their ass and decided to do what was "morally right" in their opinion, which was to bring up the issue. Things just don't work that way... especially when it comes to big business, sports, or politics.

I don't know... maybe I'm wrong. But it looks like greed.

vockins wrote:
What was the attendance at the Ohio State/Michigan game this year? 120,000? Think anyone with half a brain was under the impression that the players were steroid free?

college sports reek of fraud in general. you're probably a big fan of the bcs, too.

And those problems are?

that it's cheating. it's that simple. there are rules in sports against substance abuse, most of which are broken anyway, but it's usually pot or crack. when you're literally taking advantage of a substance that is going to give you a monumental edge over the compitition, that's just not right. that's like i challenge you to a fight, and i get a semi-automatic and some sweet ass knives, will you have to come at me blindfolded weilding a rusty spoon.

Are you under the impression that Barry Bonds's steroid use is solely responsible for his achievement? Why hasn't anyone else come close? Are steroids solely responsible for his .529 OBP last year?

Perhaps Ken Griffey Jr. would still be an asset if he had run a few cycles to help himself heal.

yes, i am under that impression. bonds put up pretty good numbers for his career, and one could probably make a really good case for his induction into the hall of fame even without that 73 HR year, but the fact that it's there as a mark on his name is irreprehensable. other's HAVE come close, some by using similiar substances (does the name mark mcgwire ring a bell) and some without (um, mairs? sosa... although he's questionable). Steroids are not solely responsible for his .529 OBP last year, but i'm sure his 6 BILLION walks helped a LITTLE.

Ty Cobb? Black Sox? No black players until 1947? The threats to Jackie Robinson? The threats to Hank Greenberg? The "Shot Heard 'Round The World" being a result of a read sign? Pete Rose? Among others I'll leave out for the sake of brevity.

look, NO professional sports have a clean slate. but in instances when players have CHEATED (and yes, using steroids is cheating...) they have had to pay the pentaly (SEE: black sox).

There's no Easter Bunny, either. Sorry to fuck up your Spring.

sorry brother, but i'm jewish.

What is the problem with a product that doesn't hurt anyone else that makes a person a better player?

i'm not going to grace that with an answer.

Heh... that analogy is great. A bit extreme... but we're on the same page here. Steroids create an uneven playing field... some people are juiced and some aren't. Those who aren't... are at a disadvantage. Pure and simple.

And as for the mentality of "let them go hog wild".... or "do what they want", um... how about no. Think about what would happen if we let up just a bit on something like that. Then what happens to some of the other rules. You give a little on something like this, and it turns into a lot. Then you end up with a lot of grey area. This would begin the downfall of organized sports as we know it. Well, possibly anyways.

Cut and dry. It's cheating, it's unfair, it's inconsistent, and it's wrong. Things are already bad enough. No catalyst needed.

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vockins wrote:What about some other players that have been implicated in this scandal, like Santiago and Bernard? A lot of good the juice did them, and the 500 other no names doing cycles in MLB.

wasn't benito santiago voted to the all star game a couple years ago at the age of... like... 50? that's a pretty big coincidence. early in his career he was a gold glove winner and made the all-star game, but then age got to him, now he needs some edge to make a living.

marvin bernard never had over 10 HR in a year then suddenly hit around 15 for a few years before trailing off again. another coincidence.

OK, how about there is no god?

you're still not offending me.

Boo. If you can't answer that question, you shouldn't be weighing in on the topic at hand.

alright. the point is simple. it's the main point of the argument. if there are rules set up that ban a certain substance, and then someone breaks those rules, it's ILLEGAL. if human growth hormones and anabolic steroids were admitted by the league, so be it. use them to your heart's content.

but that's not the case.

if you're caught with coke, or heroin, you're thrown in jail. that's because the government has set up "rules" that "ban" these substances. now scale that down to the people who run the sport and the players who exist in that world. it's probably not even the best analogy and i apologize for that.

and please stop using that insipid "field of dreams/bad news bears" bullshit. you used that line in another thread and still nobody gives a shit or thinks it's funny. your claiming i'm some sort of sap can't be further from the truth. read the first post i made in this thread: i'm happy that this is happening because i think it's a huge fucking joke. i can't stop laughing at how humorous the whole situation is. i don't even like baseball all that much (see my second post). stop trying to condescend like i'm some sort of fucking pussy, it's not working.

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vockins wrote:Hell, I have kerokatonis (I fucked the spelling, let's just call it flat eyeball

sounds like sap to me.



moral of the story: this is all a big joke and despite the fact that i'd like to see it done without cheating, it's inevitable.