Marsupialized wrote:Go to any construction site and start checking green cards.

Bricklayers, Electrical work, landscaping. Try and get a house built without half the crew either being illegal Irish or Mexicans.
Those are the previously high paying jobs people want and they can't get because some fucking illegal will do it for 5 bucks an hour.
You are believing the wrong people when you say 'it's just shit jobs nobody wants'.

Don't forget the Italians.

Justin from Queens wrote:

Marsupialized wrote:

Jeremy wrote:I can't tell.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/28/bush.a ... index.html

I was under the impression that our country had a reputation as the 'melting pot' of all different cultures/nations.

It's a melting pot, sure. All kinds of people all over the place. But we, like every other country have immigration laws. You have to go through a process. Just like anywhere else.
Crawling under a fence, getting a job, leeching off the system but paying zero taxes toward that system. Bullshit.

Fuck this illegal immigrant uprising bullshit.
Their only argument is that they don't feel like paying taxes.
They wanna come here and get all the benefits of being a citizen, but they don't wanna pay taxes.
Well, I don't wanna pay fucking taxes either!
Fuck you, illegal immigrants.
Get in line and fill out your paperwork like everyone else has had to do.

Two big things wrong with this argument:

1. You're offering a false choice to people. It would be an improvement if we could say to people - "You've come to this country for whatever reason. If you'd like to stay here, you need to become a citizen. That means declaring citizenship, filing paperwork and paying taxes. In return, you will receive the benefits of citizenship - the rights recognized under the Constitution and, should you so desire, the opportunity for legal, gainful employment commesurate with the skills you possess. In additon, there is a social safety net should you fall on hard times. But you need to sign on the dotted line first."

We don't offer that to people. Instead, we offer them a half-comprehensible muck of lotteries, bureaucratic difficulties and a willingness to have them stay so long as they shut the fuck up and clean toilets/mow lawns/take care of the elderly/bus tables/sew shirts/pound nails, etc.

I've met probably 20 or so illegal immigrants (that I know of) in the past year. None of them - not a single one - was avoiding citizenship for the reasons that you posit: avoiding paying tax. Given the opportunity to get a green card and not have to live under constant fear of deportation, they would do it in a heartbeat. It's an argument from ignorance at best. At worst, it's xenophobic and racist.

2. Sales tax.

= Justin

Ok, about your argument, which isn't really an argument.
So why the fuck don't they become citizens? You are saying it's too hard?
Call me a racist but this idea in your head that Mexicans are too dumb to figure out how to become citizens in the correct manner?

The Arabs come here, do what they have to do, fill out their paperwork and next thing you know poof! they have a business and have melted into the melting pot. The Irish did it, the itallians, Africans do it, Koreans, etc...etc...
They all figured it out.

But is she fat?

Hrmmm... what are the immigration quotas from Mexico now?

Around 50,000 or so, isn't it?

fuck bush

Marsupialized wrote:Ok, about your argument, which isn't really an argument.
So why the fuck don't they become citizens? You are saying it's too hard?
Call me a racist but this idea in your head that Mexicans are too dumb to figure out how to become citizens in the correct manner?

The Arabs come here, do what they have to do, fill out their paperwork and next thing you know poof! they have a business and have melted into the melting pot. The Irish did it, the itallians, Africans do it, Koreans, etc...etc...
They all figured it out.

dude, did you not read the part where I said it takes 15 years at a minimum to get a citizenship? I have many, well educated relatives that have been waiting for forever. they have to come back to america every two or three years (which costs money) and have more meetings after meetings and that's after having a green card. still no citizenship.

it's a bullshit clusterfuck. Getting citizenship isn't a convenient option for people that need to work to make ends meet. there's no solution to the problem in what you're suggesting.

Marsupialized wrote:Ok, about your argument, which isn't really an argument.
So why the fuck don't they become citizens? You are saying it's too hard?
Call me a racist but this idea in your head that Mexicans are too dumb to figure out how to become citizens in the correct manner?

The Arabs come here, do what they have to do, fill out their paperwork and next thing you know poof! they have a business and have melted into the melting pot. The Irish did it, the itallians, Africans do it, Koreans, etc...etc...
They all figured it out.

Don't see an argument? Then I'll spell it out for you in terms you'll get:

The path to citizenship is much more complex than you say. What Arabs are you talking about? Who are they? Show me evidence. I'm saying I know nearly 2 dozen people who want to become citizens and cannot. Faiz gives a similar example.

What do you mean "do what they have to do"? Spell it out. What's the "etc."?

The people I'm talking about - that I know - are mostly of either African or Caribbean-Islander descent. They are contrary to your poorly spelled out example. They want to become citizens and cannot.

And to further highlight - you said previously that Irish people are part of the problem ("illegal Irish"). Then you highlight the Irish in this post as people who magically become immigrants the right way. Which is it? Since you're inconsistent on the Irish but are consistent on the Mexicans, yeah, I think your argument is racist.

To break it down again - and this is my argument - your suggestion that people who aren't citizens are culpable because they don't want to pay taxes is a fantasy. It's contrary to the direct experience of two people who are arguing against you. Arguing that, in fact, the immigration system is an incoherent mess that doesn't even reward the values that this country is supposed to celebrate. And that therefore, demonizing people for being illegal immigrants is wrong. (Faiz, tell me if we’ve parted company here.)

If this isn't clear enough for you then we don't really have much to talk about. If you've got evidence to the contrary, let's hear it. Otherwise, your opinion is misinformed and, as you say, racist.

= Justin

What's the problem with having the national anthem translated into Spanish?

I don't see a problem with that. Translate into any language you want. I also don't think its racist to say that immigrants need to learn english. I mean, that's our language.

Are they wanting to play it at ball games or something, alongside the english version?

That would be pretty craptastic.

1. Bush is not brilliant, and whenever he speaks out about something that is of the moment he proves what everyone already knows.

2. Sing the National Anthem in whatever language you like. Learn to speak English, as well, as it will help you out in the long run. Learn to drive first, though.

3. When we, as a nation, wrenched Texas away from Mexico, and when we later accepted that territory as a state, we accepted a borderland with an arbitrarily denoted border that was at all time crossed and recrossed by peoples from both nations. We essentially brought the immigration problem into the fold.

4. Illegals do not 'do nothing but the shit work'. They build houses, etc., as noted by Marsupialized. What is more, getting jobs on many of the sites that are dominated by illegals is not easy. Hispanics can be as racist as anyone and they can be clannish in re work sources, etc.

5. Illegals are burdensome in some respects, and it is not clear that, if we could keep them out, the work would not be done by others, though those others would likely get more $.

6. I see nothing wrong with going after companies and making them pay a penalty, etc., for exploiting the situation. This is especially the case as there is nothing wrong with trying to limit the number of people we allow into the country, so long as the guidelines we use for drawing lines are not offensive to our higher sensibilities. There is no really good way to stanch the flow from south of the border.

unarmedman wrote:I also don't think its racist to say that immigrants need to learn english. I mean, that's our language.

Says who?

No, really, says who? Our country doesn't have an official language, and it shouldn't. English is most commonly used, but that hasn't always been the case, and it isn't even now in some neighborhoods.

Life may be easier on some immigrants if they learn english, but for many of them there are more important things, like surviving.