america is where the money is. heh. ironically, if you wanna make good money as a touring american band, you can do that by heading to europe. or so i hear. go figure.

i only have one friend who is a full-time professional musician with no other day job. and i know one thing he does when he's not touring, or writing new material, or recording, or lining up shows, or booking airline reservations, is that he reads books. hope that helps.

another friend who is semi-pro-ish (used to tour in Government Issue for a bit) hasn't gone touring for some time, as far as i know. he works at a place that rents out music gear, and he privately teaches drum lessons.

on top of that, i know probably dozens of people who have toured to a smaller or larger extent, who have jobs. and on top of that i know dozens more who've never toured, but play shows at local venues. and on top of that, i'm not sure how many people i've met who play guitar in the bedroom all alone, through their line6 box. always with the line6! but i'm sure there's lotsa people who don't even play local shows. or have a band together.

and if you are bummed out by what people are saying in this thread, and by what steve wrote about signing to a major, i'm gonna hafta guess that you're either really young (like teens or early 20's) or you haven't really been in a serious band for more than a couple years. is that a good guess? cause at some point you have to realize that for every one band that gets to quit their day jobs and do stuff like buy a house and a car and a dog and a philipino mailorder bride, there are at least a THOUSAND, if not TEN THOUSAND that cannot pull that off. seriously, how many bands never even make it out of the basement to play local gigs?

also, don't forget to consider the role of "artistic integrity". some folks would never consider playing music other than their own kick-ass super-creative stuff that most likely will not have a huge audience that appreciates it. some other folks have no problem getting a steady gig playing dave matthews covers at a local yuppie bar, and raking in some nice cash. day job traded in. done. some folks can actually sleep fine at night doing that, too.

maybe mogwai have super-rich parents, or grandparents who died and willed them a million dollars? i know that can help some folks out. having parents with so much money that they don't really need to be pragmatic and worry about shit like paying bills and stuff. if you can believe this, there are actually parents who buy their kids entire cars, and in some cases, even houses. maybe one of them is screwing somebody important. and shit, maybe mogwai is dealing crack, who the hell knows. it could be that they just make a bunch of money off their craft. i could only guess.

long story long, if you're playing music with hopes of having it some day be your only job, think that through. the only way i've been able to work that puzzle to a satisfactory conclusion is the scenario in which my band has absolutely amazing music, and i get an opportunity to go on a national or world tour opening for the monster alternative rock band of the day. right now, i'd say that band would be somebody like the Foo Fighters, or the Strokes, or the White Stripes, or hell, i dunno, that's all so last year. i don't even know who the big phenom is right now. Outkast, yeah, if i could tour, opening for Outkast. then i would give up the pragmatic security of my consistent, paying job, and go out there and just play music. other than a scenario like that, i really don't see how i'm gonna make the transition to being a professional musician and earning at least a good $40K a year, if not at least $50K. cause at this point in my life, i'm old (29) and have grown accustomed to being able to buy stuff like a truck (to get me to work, and lug my gear to gigs when i have them) and a new amp and a mixer and a new sweater for my mailorder philipino bride.

or, better yet, take what i'm saying, and totally ignore it, and don't think it through, and maybe even actively tell me to go fuck myself for saying all this stupid shit. and then just play your fucking music, and set up your tours, and play your gigs, and keep your band together, and do it because you love doing it. not because you expect that if you do a couple/few national tours that you're gonna quit your day job. i mean really, isn't rock music historically all about reckless abandon, moreso than conservative pragmatism? of course it is. that's why i don't rock. i suck at going full-on "fuck-all!"

but really, i wonder how many bands have pulled that move off. touring all on their own, not opening for an already established, successful band, and then making even $20K a year *profit*, or more, (each member, mind you) just being a musician. i bet it's somewhere between one in every thousand and one in every ten thousand.

honestly, i really like my music and all, and i think it has merit, but i wouldn't forsake a paying job to gamble like that, thinking that i'm in the 99.9th or 99.99th percentile as far as bands go.

and don't forget, i'm also talking about top 99.9th percentile in terms of overall marketability, not quality of music. take for example slint vs hootie and the blowfish (thanks a fucking lot to whoever brought that band up today! ) and that will help illustrate the key to substantial monetary success.

being a "professional rocker", if you think about it, is not only the fantasy of the vast majority of musicians (yes, *fantasy*, most of the time), but it's also THE FANTASY OF CONSTRUCTION WORKERS, AND CAR SALESMAN, AND ACCOUNTANTS, AND LINE COOKS! damn near everybody under the age of 40 would probably love to be mick jagger, or britney spears, or metallica, or mega-rockstar XYZ, whoever, one of the hundreds of massively successful folks... wouldn't they?

so anyways, in summary, if you care what other people think, i'd recommend that you play because you love to, and because you just have to, because it's in your gut, and in your soul, and in your nuts, and in the freakin stars, etc. do it because it's *your thing*, not because you expect it to pay the bills. and if it's not your thing, then you'll know that for sure right around the time you can step away from it when you don't make money. plenty of us keep doing it after that point. shit, i don't even wanna think about the number of thousands of dollars i've pumped into gear and strings and picks and sticks over the past 15 years, and recording albums, that's a good chunk of change too... as opposed to the $500 (gross, not net obviously) i've brought in for the fifty shows i've played. oops, forgot gas money, too. i'd estimate my net loss at maybe $5K to $10K over 15 years.

computer programmingly, acoustical consultantingly, unlikely to ever be a professional musicianingly, yet still unable to go more than a couple weeks without making musically yours,

tmh

ps - i apologize if that's all bullshit. i just made it up now.

i was once in a full time pro band which quickly ended up signing to a fake-indie branch of a major label. the only good money i made was a wodge (10%) of the publishing deal that cleared my enormous debts. before we signed; names in the UK music press every week, I was living on about £30 a week dole money and eating one meal a day.

we were all on wages of £150 a week (that was about $250 eight years ago) for three years. and we did pretty well in comparison - no gigantic rip-offs et al. big deals are a bit less 'bend over' in the UK.

at the time i hated much of it, but now having to work for a living, i look back on it slightly with rose-tinted specs. three years of pissing about in expensive studios, lording it about town, and spending other people's money. we knew from the start the writing was on the wall. there was no indie career plan which got corrupted - there was no plan at all. i'd do it again if i was 20.

i've been in 'underground' bands ever since, and i've never made more than pin money off the 'art', and i've been in a band or two ever since the 'big one' split.
i have however got to travel to amazing countries and met all sorts of amazing people around the country and the world who do the same thing i do. and that is the juice for me. it's the people and the community. nothing that new under the sun, i know.


after we split the singer, who wrote all the songs, spent his bigger share of all the money we made off all these idiots, probably close on £100,000 on holeing himself up in an increasingly expensive egomaniacal studio for four years, not working, and came up with...fuck all. for a lot of people, a little taste is never enough.

I am in my early 20s, and I am in my first band. And I know that very few bands "make it", but I thought the ones that did, the ones that have a few albums out, can at least make enough money not to work.

I know my band doesnt have a snowballs chance in hell of getting signed to a label, but if it happened, I just cant imagine working too. Like turning to the person next to you in the office, "What did you do in your 2 weeks off? Took the kids to the park? I just did a mini-tour of Germany."



To be honest I'm just a lazy fuck who's looking for a way to never have to get another job.

I could start guessing which band this was but it'd drive me up the wall, wouldn't it?

Johnnyshape's, I mean.

run joe, run wrote:Johnnyshape's, I mean.

i am richey manic

I am in my early 20s, and I am in my first band. And I know that very few bands "make it", but I thought the ones that did, the ones that have a few albums out, can at least make enough money not to work.

this is overwhelmingly not true

there are exceptions that serve to prove the rule, but they are bands that are much more popular than paul newman

think about it: you have to clear, what, low-20K to not starve to death and have a place to live? assuming you are young and happy to eat shit and live in a hovel when you aren't touring.

how many people are in your band? say a bare minimum of 3. that's maybe 70k/yr the band has to have left over after you pay tour expenses (gas, lodging, per diems, van repair, strings, sticks, heads etc.), booking agent, etc.

you have to net, as profit, $190 every single day of the year to come up with that $70,000. record sales, shows, whatever--that is your daily nut.

this is a tall order. if you sell 20,000 records a year and play maybe 200 dates a year, you can eke out this kind of a 'living.' and it will get old pretty fast, unless your situation improves.

i'm not saying it's not worth a try. it's worth a try. it's actually quite fun for a while. but if/when things do not improve, it's a dog's life by most people's standards.

I know my band doesnt have a snowballs chance in hell of getting signed to a label, but if it happened, I just cant imagine working too. Like turning to the person next to you in the office, "What did you do in your 2 weeks off? Took the kids to the park? I just did a mini-tour of Germany."

this very month, i'm taking a week of my vacation to tour japan

i'm sure it will be incredible

Rotten Tanx wrote:I am in my early 20s, and I am in my first band. And I know that very few bands "make it", but I thought the ones that did, the ones that have a few albums out, can at least make enough money not to work.

I know my band doesnt have a snowballs chance in hell of getting signed to a label, but if it happened, I just cant imagine working too. Like turning to the person next to you in the office, "What did you do in your 2 weeks off? Took the kids to the park? I just did a mini-tour of Germany."



To be honest I'm just a lazy fuck who's looking for a way to never have to get another job.

to echo tmidge's sentiment - yep, i have used every bit of my vacation time for touring, and it is exactly like you say. my manager went to the UK after we got back from there and i was giving her advice on exchange rates (do your exchange in london, not chicago - we lost about 100$ in the exchange by waiting 12 hrs).

but anyway - it just becomes not an issue at some point - it's just a factual matter. do you want to do these things with your life? then you are forced to deal with the consequences of that. you're probably never gonna take a long weekend in vegas or go to florida golfing like my coworkers do - and the flip side is they'll never be able to sleep in a scabies filled squat in amsterdam after playing a show. (not that i didn't enjoy it - it was awesome actually!)

it does sort of filter out who's really serious about it though - because it's a total pain in the ass, but also completely worth it - and if you have an opportunity like that, you can't pass it up. and, i can't wait to get back on the road...

Rotten Tanx wrote:To be honest I'm just a lazy fuck who's looking for a way to never have to get another job.

Perhaps a normal job is exactly what you need.

Building a career in music is definately "hard work". Anyone who's ever been successful and independant has had to work their ass off to make it work for them. Frank Zappa is one who immediately comes to mind.

This is why so many young bands pine for that "sweet ass" major label deal; because they figure it'll allow them to be lazy asses and coast along while everyone else does "all the hard work" (and makes all the money).

The dichotomy that lies in a career in music is that to be sucessful at it, you must treat it as a serious business. But what attracts someone like yourself to music is a desire to not have to work in a serious business setting. This lapse of sound judgement allows non-business minded musicians to be exploited by record companies, managers, etc...

Something else to consider is that to be a success in business involves some degree of compromise and cooperation. If music is your art, and artists usually are reluctant to compromise their art, which is their love.....
Well you can start to see how unhappy many "artists" are about their music "career".

Consider doing what you love for the pure enjoyment of it. Tour for the joy and excitement of touring - that's a worthwhile vacation, no? Pick a separate career that you find challanging and interesting, but don't mind having to compromise a little from time to time. That will allow you a better chance of being successful by being "business minded". Music SHOULD be about the passion and the primal scream, not trying to eek out a living. Chances are you'll be much happier. It just takes getting over that lazy-ass syndrome (do you smoke dope?).

an extension of the discussion:

if music becomes your job, then it is true that, while you are playing music on stage or practicing or recording, you may not feel that you are 'working,' per se

but while you are talking to dimwitted music journalists about yourself a few hours a day, or dealing with troublesome promoters, or driving 800mi in between shows, or not getting any sleep for days on end, you will most certainly feel like you are working, if not worked over

the b.s. surrounding the couple hours a day you play music, that becomes your job

if it paid well enough, it's a job i might take, given the chance, but...in all honesty, i'm not entirely sure it would make me happier than i am now. i don't enjoy much of that 'work' in small doses, and the chance definitely exists that it would make me sorta miserable.