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how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:06 pm
by cenafria_Archive
I've found this can be a dificult situation to deal with. When I hear a drummer with a lot of cymbals/hihat in his sound, if I use OH mics I go for 4038s in a "Glyn Jones" configuration. Although there are different "versions" of this technique, I found this diagram to be pretty clear. This mic placement favours the toms and you get less cymbals. Although the tom rolls are spectacular using this technique the drums tend to not sound "modern" (I know this isn't very being clear...). Some drummers preffer the precission of the stereo picture that an MS configuration will give you. Putting the "overhead" mics in front of the kit gives you a little more control over the cymbals. Move your head up and down and you will find a height were the cymbals are less harsh. If your room sounds good try omni mics on the floor delayed about 20ms (there's some cool pictures here) I've found that harsh cymbals are not so much of a problem if they have more of a room sound than a close sound.

On the hihat I found this to be very helpful (the coins work really well, specially when the hihat is played closed) (the entire thread is here):



These have all worked for me, in increasing order of deperation (most deperate acts at the bottom):

Throw some spare change or a set of keys or some small nuts and bolts in the space between the two hi-hat cymbals. I much prefer this to using tape. The extra weight seems to deaden the cymbal a little without losing the texture, and the keys or coins jumping around inside a little sound good.

Try using the bottom hi-hat on the top -- sometimes the bottom cymbal is heavier and will be less piercing, especially if it has holes cut in it.

Use larger/heavier hi-hats. 15" is not excessive, and we keep a couple pairs around for emergencies. They will be lower in pitch and will probably not be as loud. I have recorded several drummers who use 16" crash or cut-down ride cymbals for hi-hats for this reason.

See if the drummer can raise his hi-hats a few inches. This gets them a little farther away from the snare drum mic, where a lot of bleed comes from. It also shortens his hi-hat stroke, so there is likely to be less energy on each hit, and changes the angle slightly so the cymbal is hit more on the edge than on the top -- which also softens the sound.

Use flimsier, trashier-sounding hi-hats. Camber, CB, Solar, Ufip, Zilco, Meinl, Bosphoros, Pulse, Wuhan -- anything other than Sabian, Zildjian or Paiste. They may only last a day, but they only cost 30 bucks. If you can bend it with your bare hands, you've found a winner.

Once the material has been recorded, you're shit out of luck. I have been able to tame hi-hat bleed in snare drum and rack tom tracks using a de-esser (DBX162, DBX900 module, Dyna-mite, BSS DPR 402, Orange County Stressor), but it isn't preferred to making a good recording initially. If you can tidy the snare and rack tom tracks that way, the overheads may not be too overbearing after all.

I would not recommend using a gate, as the gate, when open, will send the hi-hat blazing through, and you'll get the worst of both worlds: Choppy and piercing.

best,

steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
www.electrical.com

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:52 am
by vaka_Archive
Another suggestion is to ask the drummer if he is willing and able to hit the cymbals/hats not quite as hard.

I'm a drummer myself and I've always hit hard as fuck on everything, but when I got into engineering I've actually started adjusting my playing and still hit pretty hard on the drums themselves, but a bit mellower on the brass. This give me way more options and control when it's time to mix. I've yet to reach a situation where it's "fuck, the cymbals are just too low/weak".

I know most drummers (myself included before I gave it a try) will argue that it will sound tame, but I usually parallell compress the shit out of the kit and I think that works really well to bring some balls back into it. Also, balls are not just in how hard you hit the cymbals..
And I'm not suggestions you should caress the cymbals with a silky smooth touch, but yeah.. just not try to destroy them with every hit. They will still sound plenty aggressive (depending on brand/series of course).

And if you know that the drummer you're going to record hits hard, maybe it's a good idea to approach them in advance so he can rehearse playing a bit lighter on the brass.
IMHO, I actually think drums sound better the weaker you hit 'em. Toms especially. Again, I'm not suggestion you should make love to the drums, but just not try total annihilation on every hit.

And last but not least, I favor the sound of ambience mics waay over OH's and close mics. I always base my sound on those. The drums sound natural, balanced - less prominent cymbals, and got tons of balls (if you haven't noticed, I like talking about balls).

And in a perfect world everybody would use K-series Zildjians. Dark.. warm.. mmm..

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:34 am
by skatingbasser_Archive
You haven't found one because there is no direct answer. You will struggle with this to some degree for as long as you make records, as will the rest of us. That's what the guys in the band are paying you to do. Work at a problem as best you can, not memorize annd execute an equation to get desired results. Yes you should be experimenting. With everything.

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:29 am
by omaroski_Archive
do you have a de-esser? i have a dbx 563x and it perfectly attenuates the frequency in the range of ''csshhh''

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:33 pm
by thebookofkevin_Archive
cenafria took most of the words right out of my mouth.

skatingbasser took the rest.

experimentation is key.

also, what is your mixer setup like? can you setup, say, 6 mics on the kit and buss them to 2 tracks and still have channels for everything else?

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:38 am
by Long_Shaded_Eyes_Archive
Hi,

I'll go for just one mono overhead and stereo room mic.
The more I use room mic, the more I'm happy with them. Most of the time I just don't like overhead. You'll get more ambiance / snare / kick / tom and less cymbals in room mics I think.

Also take care of your room (wood on the floor, bass trap...).
Also Rodes tend to sound harsh to me ... good mics but very "hard". Try to rent some smooth condencer, or a Ribbon for the mono overhead.

Also don't print overhead to hot.


And of course , tell the drummer to play the hh / cymbals softer. Peraps change the set of cymbals.

Hope it helps in a way.
/Nick.

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:58 pm
by readysetrawk_Archive
I think Dave Grohl has counteracted that problem by playing with pads on his cymbals and then going back and recording cymbal sounds at another time. He still got to pound the shit out of his kit and play the whole thing in the time and rythm that he wrote it without it being a bleedy mess.

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:03 pm
by skatingbasser_Archive
readysetrawk wrote:I think Dave Grohl has counteracted that problem by playing with pads on his cymbals and then going back and recording cymbal sounds at another time. He still got to pound the shit out of his kit and play the whole thing in the time and rythm that he wrote it without it being a bleedy mess.


Wow, that would really suck to be the other guys tracking along with him during the shell take.

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:57 am
by eliya_Archive
skatingbasser wrote:
readysetrawk wrote:I think Dave Grohl has counteracted that problem by playing with pads on his cymbals and then going back and recording cymbal sounds at another time. He still got to pound the shit out of his kit and play the whole thing in the time and rythm that he wrote it without it being a bleedy mess.


Wow, that would really suck to be the other guys tracking along with him during the shell take.


I know he did that with The Queens of The Stone Age. I don't know if he did that again.
anyhow, there's a good chance they weren't tracking together.

how to best record drums and deal with cymbals-hihats

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:27 am
by benjaminwayne_Archive
hey, thanks for the advice and helpful tips, much appreciated.....
thebookofkevin - im using a Mackie VLZ series 16 chan mixer, is it possible, using your suggestion, to set up 6 mics on the kit, then bus them all over to say, Sub groups 1 and 2, take em out of Left and Right and then have six more tracks for the rest of the band spare? or am i forgetting something that will prevent me from doing this on an 8 track machine?
.....i have also, due to lack of tracks spare mostly, been using one mono room / ambient mic instead of OH/s as this to a certain degree maintains more room ambiance and in theory cuts the nastly hats / cymbals out of the equation.....however, i still find that they cut through severely and need a bit of 12k or so taken out which i would rather not do as it cuts into the cool crack of the roomy snare sound etc;