rocco wrote:You cannot separate this book from its ridiculously overwhelming influence on the world.

Yes, you can.

And it is a fine read. A couple of notes:

1. Yes, context is important. For instance, the binding of Isaac in Genesis 22 is given sharper focus when viewed as a response to some stories in the pagan traditions. However, keep in mind that these stories operate at many distinct and separately worthy levels, and even absent a good understanding of the cultural/historical context, they work as simple (but not simple minded) moral lessons -- or just as entertaining reads.

2. Beware the ellipsis! Read these stories slowly! The biblical authors and editors were pithy to the extreme. You should always contemplate the unspecified events taking place around and within the story. More importantly, given the terse writing style, if a word or statement is included, you can best believe that it's there for a reason.

3. Most of all, these are human characters (well, except a couple of them) with human desires, fears, strengths and shortcomings. Anyone who gets hung up on the mystical elements of the stories misses a valuable point: that these authors know a thing or two about the human condition, and had a pretty much unparalleled ability to craft stories explaining that condition in compelling terms.

By the way, Uriah the Hittite is the biggest bad ass in the history of literature.

Bradley R. Weissenberger wrote:

rocco wrote:You cannot separate this book from its ridiculously overwhelming influence on the world.

Yes, you can.

You can, but do you really want to? It's about as easy as objectively judging the good character of your mother's rapist. You could do it...but why?

I say throw this hunk of crap out the goddamn window. It's been used to justify slavery, misogyny, fuel wars, slow down science, promote bigotry of every flavor, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

These things weren't just misguided actions based on metaphors taken out of context - there are very direct, explicit passages in the bible calling for this type of shit.

Get rid of it.

(Anyone up for giving an unbiased critique of Mein Kaumpf?)

Christopher wrote:I say throw this hunk of crap out the goddamn window. It's been used to justify slavery, misogyny, fuel wars, slow down science, promote bigotry of every flavor, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

So has the Constitution, Mr. Smarty Kex! Do we get rid of that, too?

I don't think equating the bible to your mom's rapist or Mein Kampf is fair. I'm not a religious person, but I do see that the basic teachings of most religions is for a better society specifically through kindness as is evidencewd by Jesus' "Ill Flow." Now, whether or not some wackos misinterpret the books and ruin everyone's fun is a whole other thing.

I believe the question at hand was to critique he writing and not just go off on the same fucking platitudes that every nickle scholar and their raped mom does. Boring! "the bible contradicts itself! the bible was written after the fact! the bible blah blah..."

Most of us know this. You failed to answer the question.


Faiz

Christopher wrote:I say throw this hunk of crap out the goddamn window. It's been used to justify slavery, misogyny, fuel wars, slow down science, promote bigotry of every flavor, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

These things weren't just misguided actions based on metaphors taken out of context - there are very direct, explicit passages in the bible calling for this type of shit.

you spelled Kampf wrong.

the only way you can use the Bible to justify any of the stuff you mention here is if you selectively read it, most specifically the Old Testament (i.e. the Jewish rules, not as much the Christian ones) and take as Gospel (ha ha) the things you want to hear. If you actually read the whole thing, and you read the New Testament, you'll see that none of these things are justified any longer. If you even remotely understand the points that Jesus is out to make, you don't fall into any of that shit you describe.

one of the things i like the best about the Bible is the whole notion of Adam and Eve (which i find to be a great metaphor) mucking it all up by going for the knowledge. that's where it all starts. and it's astounding to think that thousands of years ago, someone was able to pen a story that perfectly describes the plight of mankind... doing stupid shit, having knowledge that gets us into trouble. i'm not saying we should all take the blue pill or anything, but the only thing, the single thing that makes man so fucking special is our knowledge, our big brain. that's how we can operate on such a huge, destructive scale. knowledge that we don't manage properly. that blows my mind that somebody saw that thousands of years ago. cause it really came into its own, well, since the industrial revolution.

and your notion that because people misuse the book and selectively read it to rationalize their own insane actions, that's justification for censoring it? by that logic, the beatles and elvis and whoever should been burned at the stake or something. at least "thrown out the window" as you say. rock and roll in general, or hiphop, or anything for that matter. just because assholes use something in their rationalization doesn't automatically make that thing bad. it makes the *people* *assholes*.

kerble wrote:

Christopher wrote:I say throw this hunk of crap out the goddamn window. It's been used to justify slavery, misogyny, fuel wars, slow down science, promote bigotry of every flavor, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

So has the Constitution, Mr. Smarty Kex! Do we get rid of that, too?

I don't think equating the bible to your mom's rapist or Mein Kampf is fair. I'm not a religious person, but I do see that the basic teachings of most religions is for a better society specifically through kindness as is evidencewd by Jesus' "Ill Flow." Now, whether or not some wackos misinterpret the books and ruin everyone's fun is a whole other thing.

I believe the question at hand was to critique he writing and not just go off on the same fucking platitudes that every nickle scholar and their raped mom does. Boring! "the bible contradicts itself! the bible was written after the fact! the bible blah blah..."

Most of us know this. You failed to answer the question.

I'm afraid you are dead-ass wrong. There is no misinterpretation necessary. Did you even read my post? Again, there are very specific passages in the bible that call for these things. Attributing it only to misconstrued metaphor is ignoring the facts.

And no, we would not throw out the constitution. The difference between the bible and the constitution is that the constitution can change and be amended. Mistakes can be recognized, and wrongs can be corrected (as they historically have). The bible CANNOT do this. It is entirely rooted in and dependant on it being an unchanging document. The same can also be said about the difference between religion and science.

I don't know, nor do i give a rat's fuck, what "nickel scholars" talk about. Do you?

Christopher wrote:

kerble wrote:

Christopher wrote:you arguing

me arguing

Arguing...Did you even read my post? Again, there are very specific passages in the bible that call for these things. Attributing it only to misconstrued metaphor is ignoring the facts...more arguing...ratfuck nickle scholars...

That's the whole point. The bible is a static artifact. It represents the way things were. Whether or not people try to govern their lives around it now using a depiction of an old society is flawed. This is exactly why writing it off as "bad" was not the purpose of the whole thread. We're talking literary content, which is "good."

Did I read your post? Yes.
Did you read the question?




Faiz

that's cool that you're afraid i'm dead-ass wrong. if you care, we can make a wager as to how extensively you've read the book, and how extensively i have, and we can measure our dicks, too. the point is this : if you've read the WHOLE BOOK, or even studied it much at all, you should know that there's an angle to it. you're wrong when you say it can't be corrected. IT WAS. the crazy rules for "if you beat your slave nearly to death but he lives, you receive no punisment because he is your property" and all that kinda stuff, that's all in the OLD TESTAMENT. Jesus didn't say shit about how it's okay to beat your slaves. if you get the message of what he was saying, you'll see that the only way you're gonna come away from reading the Bible and this it's cool to kill or beat your slaves or whatnot, is if you selectively read certain parts, and ignore the resolution of that shit in the New Testament.

but whatever. i'm not gonna get into anything with you here. y'know why, too, right? because you're never gonna change your tune, and i'm never gonna change mine, and there's nothing we can do but fight about it. and i have no interest in doing that, not just because it would support your theory about the book being the source of the conflict, but more because there's really no point. you're gonna believe whatever the hell you wanna. and maybe you wanna wage a war against the bible, which is funny because it would be totally hypocritical, but i don't wanna wage a war against the non-bible folks out there. how's that for ironic. go team!

toomanyhelicopters wrote:but whatever. i'm not gonna get into anything with you here. y'know why, too, right? because you're never gonna change your tune, and i'm never gonna change mine,

wait, wait, wait, I wanna know:
is it cool to beat my slave or not ?!

if you're Jewish and it's over 2,000 years ago, then without question it is. i don't know how they resolve that today, the fact that there are rules about what is or isn't cool when it comes to beating your slaves. ask your Jewish friends how they resolved that one.

GuyMercier wrote:

toomanyhelicopters wrote:blahblahblahcopters

wait, wait, wait, I wanna know:
is it cool to beat my slave or not ?!

This made me cackle out loud! Salut! Guy Mercier for bringing the funny back into this gripey thread!


Faiz