people on the left have a disturbling habit of excusing the realities of the democratic party & many of its candidates.

obama believes this shit & thinks it should inform his policies. period.

What do you mean about excusing the realities--could you elaborate?

How do you know Obama really believes in god and isn't pandering?

I know it's more complex than this, but i'm giggling at how we all rolled our eyes at the "OMG OBAMA IS A MUSLIM" hysteria only for so many of us to suddenly get hysterical about him maybe being a Christian.

I have yet to read anything Obama has said himself about his faith that can't be parsed into "i don't really wear my faith on my sleeve like this but i'm choosing my words to win votes." Peeps need to chill.

(I should point out that i haven't gotten through the Newsweek interview yet, though, but it's on my couch at home.)

newberry wrote:

people on the left have a disturbling habit of excusing the realities of the democratic party & many of its candidates.

obama believes this shit & thinks it should inform his policies. period.

What do you mean about excusing the realities--could you elaborate?

How do you know Obama really believes in god and isn't pandering?

gotta get out the door to see harvey milk in a second.

the realities: the democrats are in a position to stop the war in iraq & they do not. many, many of them are not in districts where their positions are threatened, see dianne feinstein & her ilk. obama himself is talking plainly about keeping the permanent bases & reducing to non-combattant personnel. the democrats have been complicit in taking away civil liberties & making sure we don't find out how deep the massive abuses have gone. all that shit, over & over, although there is no logical reason for it. they are simply down with american imperialism, america first & an authoritarian surveillance state. sad, but true.

whatever the republicans do, you guys assume that their hearts are in it. why bend over backwards trying to find reasons to explain the indefensible shit that the democrats do? why go to all kinds of crazy lengths in order to be able to fantasize that obama is a deviously clever progressive double agent instead of just taking years of action & word at face value? i don't get it.

I know it's more complex than this, but i'm giggling at how we all rolled our eyes at the "OMG OBAMA IS A MUSLIM" hysteria only for so many of us to suddenly get hysterical about him maybe being a Christian.

Well, there is a difference. AFAIK, he never was a Muslim--that was propaganda from the right. He is a self styled Christian. He may sincerely believe that Jesus is god; or not--I don't know how any of us would really know. But he does call himself a Christian, and goes to a Christian church.

...the democrats have been complicit in taking away civil liberties & making sure we don't find out how deep the massive abuses have gone.

I wish the Dems would do more to fight for our civil liberites, etc., but it's a fact that many of them have spoken up about this, and have been trying to fight against it. There are limits to what lawmakers can do, especially when they have to fight against the GOP.

whatever the republicans do, you guys assume that their hearts are in it.

I don't --you're making a lot of generalities here. What guys?

DrAwkward wrote:I have yet to read anything Obama has said himself about his faith that can't be parsed into "i don't really wear my faith on my sleeve like this but i'm choosing my words to win votes." Peeps need to chill.

unfortunately not true. in his faith-based initiatives speech, he essentially said, "bush, now that was one motherfucking pander bear right there. me, i mean it...i'm gonna show y'all how a real jesus freak rolls."

fuck that shit. this is change i can do without.

newberry wrote:I wish the Dems would do more to fight for our civil liberites, etc., but it's a fact that many of them have spoken up about this, and have been trying to fight against it. There are limits to what lawmakers can do, especially when they have to fight against the GOP.

sorry, not buying it. look at who voted for fisa, for example.

newberry wrote:you're making a lot of generalities here. What guys?

sorry for the generalities. but there are alot of people on here basically saying when obama says something cool, that's the real obama & when he doesn't then i write it off as him being a politician. that is a sad & counterproductive kind of projection.

sorry, not buying it. look at who voted for fisa, for example.

All Dems? Again, I think you're over-generalizing here.

but there are alot of people on here basically saying when obama says something cool, that's the real obama & when he doesn't then i write it off as him being a politician. that is a sad & counterproductive kind of projection.

Could you cite an example?

And how do you know how Obama really feels about god?

AAAAAAAARGH wrote:

jurgis rudkus wrote:Fucking panderer, and what is so vexing is that he needn't have pulled this shit to win. His advisors are leading him astray.

If you mean that he needn't lie about being an atheist to win, that's sadly incorrect. Whether Obama believes or not, no atheist will be elected in this election or in any election in the next hundred years, at least. Right now, Americans would vote for a gay Muslim before they'd vote for an atheist.

I don't know of anyone running for President who doesn't believe in God or at least purport to. Personally, I think Obama does believe in God but I wouldn't be surprised if he's a little more "left" than he gives off. Not enough to make me excited about him though, and definitely not enough to think of him as some sort of Messiah. Just enough to make me vote for him.

I believe he believes in god... I don't believe he believes he should have to go into more depth on the subject or align himself with particular groups or messages... He had a church, the minister went apeshit, so now his advisors seem to be spending too much attention on making sure red America knows Obama is religious. Pandering.

I don't think he needed to add anything else after his speeches/denunciations of specific Wright statements. I get the reality that religion is going to be made an issue but a candidate has a choice of how big a deal to make of it, and I think Obama's camp is playing this wrong.

He appears more like any old candidate with every passing week, and may lose former supporters who will sit it out rather than vote for such an appeaser.

Benny wrote:

johnnyshape wrote:Rick, if you really want attention this badly, why not get a puppy?

i will paypal 5 bucks for the purchase of a puppy for rick. i'm serious.

You hate dogs, don't you?