Ryan Zepaltas wrote:
Thanks for all this everyone. Any thoughts on summing mixers? I ask because last time I sent something off for mastering, the engineer had me send him my mix in grouped stems(drums, Guitar, VOX, etc.) so that he could run them through a summing box when he mastered the tracks.
Back when I used to read audio message boards (and a mastering-specific sub forum) this practice was controversial, as it's really becomes more like mixing at that point. I've never used a ME that requested stems, and I would be a little skeptical if they did as I use mastering as the finishing touch. See the forest, not the trees, etc..
Summing boxes (or a console) can sound better than in the box for sure (though that gap has narrowed with certain buss/console plugins), but it wouldn't be the thing I'd focus on if the intent was building a mastering chain. See what you can do with a good quality eq, comp, limiter, other buss 'coloring' tools first.
Ryan Zepaltas wrote:
Thanks for all this everyone. Any thoughts on summing mixers? I ask because last time I sent something off for mastering, the engineer had me send him my mix in grouped stems(drums, Guitar, VOX, etc.) so that he could run them through a summing box when he mastered the tracks.
Back when I used to read audio message boards (and a mastering-specific sub forum) this practice was controversial, as it's really becomes more like mixing at that point. I've never used a ME that requested stems, and I would be a little skeptical if they did as I use mastering as the finishing touch. See the forest, not the trees, etc..
Summing boxes (or a console) can sound better than in the box for sure (though that gap has narrowed with certain buss/console plugins), but it wouldn't be the thing I'd focus on if the intent was building a mastering chain. See what you can do with a good quality eq, comp, limiter, other buss 'coloring' tools first.
All of this. And particularly, "I've never used a ME that requested stems, and I would be a little skeptical if they did..."
Ryan Zepaltas wrote:
Thanks for all this everyone. Any thoughts on summing mixers? I ask because last time I sent something off for mastering, the engineer had me send him my mix in grouped stems(drums, Guitar, VOX, etc.) so that he could run them through a summing box when he mastered the tracks.
Back when I used to read audio message boards (and a mastering-specific sub forum) this practice was controversial, as it's really becomes more like mixing at that point. I've never used a ME that requested stems, and I would be a little skeptical if they did as I use mastering as the finishing touch. See the forest, not the trees, etc..
Summing boxes (or a console) can sound better than in the box for sure (though that gap has narrowed with certain buss/console plugins), but it wouldn't be the thing I'd focus on if the intent was building a mastering chain. See what you can do with a good quality eq, comp, limiter, other buss 'coloring' tools first.
All of this. And particularly, "I've never used a ME that requested stems, and I would be a little skeptical if they did..."
To be fair, the guy I am working with is sort of mentoring me and the lines maybe have gotten blurred between helping me get my mixes right, and wrapping them up for mastering. I am open to his critiques and ideas as I am trying to take this whole recording/mixing thing to a new level. I will inquire deeper on the next project when we get to that stage.
Are these stems, or mixed and printed stereo tracks, or are there some of both depending on the project?
All over the map. In most cases GB/Reaper stuff that I've exported/printed. Some digitized tracks from cassettes of really old stuff. Mainly, what I was asking about in the OP is what to do from there. Lots of good feedback so far. I was just trying to find out what others do, and it is not far off from what I thought.
I was just wondering if there were any tips and tricks from people out there. Mainly just wondering about the workflow/setup (DAW plugin chains, Any possible outboard Gear worth using & running back into DAW, etc.) I also don't want to get suckered into buying some Waves BS mastering plugin just because it looks cool and retro. ha!
Are these stems, or mixed and printed stereo tracks, or are there some of both depending on the project?
All over the map. In most cases GB/Reaper stuff that I've exported/printed. Some digitized tracks from cassettes of really old stuff. Mainly, what I was asking about in the OP is what to do from there. Lots of good feedback so far. I was just trying to find out what others do, and it is not far off from what I thought.
I was just wondering if there were any tips and tricks from people out there. Mainly just wondering about the workflow/setup (DAW plugin chains, Any possible outboard Gear worth using & running back into DAW, etc.) I also don't want to get suckered into buying some Waves BS mastering plugin just because it looks cool and retro. ha!
Aha!
Okay, well before you spend money on various "mastering" plugins, might I ask, are you familiar with Airwindows? <-- This is a deep, deep hole, but I can walk you through it.
Airwindows are a series of plugins made by a lovely guy named Chris. Chris knows more about digital mixing, aliasing, truncation, dithering, sample rate conversion, bit depth, and so on, than just about anyone else alive. He has been making plugins for big companies for decades, and now makes them for free. Completely free. There are hundreds of them. You can flow him monies on patreon, or not. His plugins do not come with any installer, neither do they have any GUI. There are no presets. Your DAW will draw sliders for you in a little floating window and that's it. But mother of fucking God they sound better than anything else I have used (Chris is something of a legend in sound design circles for films and whatnot).
I cannot emphasise how deep this hole is. It takes some effort but once you know, you know. It's a bit like fine wines of very, very nice sound systems. Once ou find out, you're kind of like "Doh! This changes/improves/ruins everything!"
Here is his website but there is no introduction page or anything like that:
The philosophy is this - digital recording and mixing does not sound terribly good a lot of the time. How to make it better? Chris has built some plugins that are environments that literally replace the faders in one's plugins with faders that are much, much better. There are rules about the order in which one puts things so that the gain staging works as desired, and there are multiple dithering options and whatnot. None of this is explained in any one place, but I can show you if you are curious. There are also a bunch of plugins that one can put nearly anywhere in one's chain (reverbs and whatnot). It will take up some of your time, but you will know a lot, if perhaps too much, by the end of it!
Here is a review of one of his analogue simulators:
"lol, listen to op 'music' and you'll understand"....
I don't really do mastering (just recording and mixing) but when I find myself having to do it anyway (which usually means I don't have to be coy about it, more often than not it's for myself and I just go for it) I do something like this:
Have the mixes for the project lined up in a DAW track (or multiple tracks if differences are too drastic between mixes for one same project). Have one, sometimes two eqs inserted on said tracks (sometimes there are multiple little spots in the spectrum I'm looking to touch on, but I wait til I have to cross that bridge first). This is mostly for reductive eq, getting rid of what I don't like.
Have the track go out to a stereo bus.
I do the rest of the processing on a master channel for the stereo bus, so I can more easily adjust the level between songs on the original track with automation and make it more even. It also helps if you have to ride some internal bit of the song.
On the master bus I usually have a compressor, followed by sometimes a second eq for additive stuff if I feel like it, and then out to something that is more on the saturation side of things. Finally, if you have an L2 type limiter to tame the really stray peaks and determine your final level, that helps.
That goes into a new stereo track where I record the mastered version in real time (and almost always change my mind during the "printing", stop and go back to give it a final tweak).
Finally, I always have another (muted) stereo track called BYPASS going on, routed straight to the main output, with all the mixes lined up in sync with the first track(s) for a quick A/B comparison, to check if I'm not just making things sound weirder. For the A/B to work I usually bring down the playback level of the track I'm recording the mastering to until I'm mostly comparing how it sounds, as opposed to how loud.
That's my regular quick and dirty setup, if you're starting out I don't see why you'd want to complicate it any further, it certainly won't help you think clearly.
I would never ever consider investing in additional outboard gear AS A STARTING POINT for the purpose you're describing. Make sure you recognize you're meeting some actual limitation before you go about trying to sort it out, never do it by principle alone.
The stems thing does not sound good to me. As in "a good idea". External summing ar the mastering stage would be the exception rather than the norm?
penningtron wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:12 am
I've never used a ME that requested stems, and I would be a little skeptical if they did as I use mastering as the finishing touch. See the forest, not the trees, etc..
Stem mastering is super common these days!
Lots of of Hip-Hop and EDM can benefit from having at least a separate vocal stem.
Arguably, those genres could also benefit from better mixing, but this music isn't typically made in studio anymore.
Not sure how it would benefit OP, or if it's even possible for OP.
penningtron wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:12 am
I've never used a ME that requested stems, and I would be a little skeptical if they did as I use mastering as the finishing touch. See the forest, not the trees, etc..
Stem mastering is super common these days!
Lots of of Hip-Hop and EDM can benefit from having at least a separate vocal stem.
Arguably, those genres could also benefit from better mixing, but this music isn't typically made in studio anymore,
I don't doubt it. And I can understand why since super loud, compressed/limited mastering is the expectation so much of the time, and that'll squish the centered vocal/kick/snare track(s) if aggressively applied to a stereo mix. Popular rock bands are guilty of this too, as much as popular rock is still even a thing.
But I still think that's kind of a specialized service and not a starting point. Get the mixes sounding as good as you can, then master or have it mastered. Stem/group processing is fine but do it in the mixing stage.
penningtron wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:58 am
I don't doubt it. And I can understand why since super loud, compressed/limited mastering is the expectation so much of the time, and that'll squish the centered vocal/kick/snare track(s) if aggressively applied to a stereo mix. Popular rock bands are guilty of this too, as much as popular rock is still even a thing.
But I still think that's kind of a specialized service and not a starting point. Get the mixes sounding as good as you can, then master or have it mastered. Stem/group processing is fine but do it in the mixing stage.
Totally agree with you. In my opinion, that kind of work should be within the purview of the mixer.
Just meant that I wouldn't skeptical of the ME because it may just be how they are used to working these days.
Abbey Road offers stem mastering. Emily Lazar does it.
I don't advertise myself as a pro ME, but I often get tasked with mastering people's self mixed tracks.
Could be nice to get a vocal stem rather than giving somebody a lesson in sidechaining and asking them to remix because their vocal is getting ducked by an 808.
In any case, it's a technique that probably isn't relevant to the scope of OP's project, so I digress.
