Re: Apple Spatial Audio Bullshit... or not

11
seby wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:34 pm So I am seeing a live music performance and I am standing at the front/back side. What happens to my perception of the atmos mix? Is there some kind of calculation at work so that it sounds immersive no matter where one is positioned in its field, or would it sound even more unbalanced than standing to the side of a stereo field?
I get the impression that Atmos is more oriented to film/video multimedia production. What is important to Atmos is that the position of the channels is independent of the actual playout channels of the venue. The venue's processing handles which source channels get sent to which speakers based upon the orientation of the speaker constellation in the venue and the required delay, equalization and dynamics processing required to produce the same orientation of spatial location and level as in the original mix. It's like a multitrack recording that doesn't get mixed down until you play it in your room and the room determines how the final mix comes together through software.

Live sound tends to be oriented to various proprietary non-Dolby immersive processor systems. L'Acoustics has L-ISA processing, Meyer has Constellation, DigiCo has KLANG, etc..

The loudspeaker system design for a particular venue is oriented to the venue and seating areas to provide highly localized sound from specific loudspeakers from the perspectives of panoramic coverage, depth of coverage and edge coverage. The idea is that rather than a mono or stereo L/R or L/C/R array set, you are using a constellation of loudspeakers - both arrays, clusters, and fills, to provide wide horizontal width and depth coverage for select channels that are processed independent of a output channel assignment. Input channels are "placed" in a spatial environment with respect to position in an x, y, z space, and the processor determines the levels, as well as temporal and spectral processing required within the loudspeaker constellation to orient that channel in its respective space to the audience. What makes this different from Atmos, is the "mix" for Atmos is baked into the track metadata as part of postproduction, where in live audio, the "mix" is whatever the FOH engineer decides what gets placed where during the pre-production planning, soundcheck and/or live.

Part of the end goal is that, for example, the guitar's placement in the audience's field has the same apparent location no matter where you're seated in the venue. You end up with a much better sounding mix, because rather than cramming everything into a mono mix and blasting it out every speaker with the attendant intermodulation 'mush' you get a proportional mix where sources are going to very specific loudspeakers or loudspeaker groups and delivered with greater clarity and separation 'from' the mix rather than 'in' a mix.

I don't know what Apple's role in all this is. That does sound like some consumer/prosumer level nonsense. But in the touring and show world it's definitely not nonsense, but the shape of things to come.

Re: Apple Spatial Audio Bullshit... or not

12
Geiginni wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:00 am
seby wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:34 pm So I am seeing a live music performance and I am standing at the front/back side. What happens to my perception of the atmos mix? Is there some kind of calculation at work so that it sounds immersive no matter where one is positioned in its field, or would it sound even more unbalanced than standing to the side of a stereo field?
I get the impression that Atmos is more oriented to film/video multimedia production. What is important to Atmos is that the position of the channels is independent of the actual playout channels of the venue. The venue's processing handles which source channels get sent to which speakers based upon the orientation of the speaker constellation in the venue and the required delay, equalization and dynamics processing required to produce the same orientation of spatial location and level as in the original mix. It's like a multitrack recording that doesn't get mixed down until you play it in your room and the room determines how the final mix comes together through software.

Live sound tends to be oriented to various proprietary non-Dolby immersive processor systems. L'Acoustics has L-ISA processing, Meyer has Constellation, DigiCo has KLANG, etc..

The loudspeaker system design for a particular venue is oriented to the venue and seating areas to provide highly localized sound from specific loudspeakers from the perspectives of panoramic coverage, depth of coverage and edge coverage. The idea is that rather than a mono or stereo L/R or L/C/R array set, you are using a constellation of loudspeakers - both arrays, clusters, and fills, to provide wide horizontal width and depth coverage for select channels that are processed independent of a output channel assignment. Input channels are "placed" in a spatial environment with respect to position in an x, y, z space, and the processor determines the levels, as well as temporal and spectral processing required within the loudspeaker constellation to orient that channel in its respective space to the audience. What makes this different from Atmos, is the "mix" for Atmos is baked into the track metadata as part of postproduction, where in live audio, the "mix" is whatever the FOH engineer decides what gets placed where during the pre-production planning, soundcheck and/or live.

Part of the end goal is that, for example, the guitar's placement in the audience's field has the same apparent location no matter where you're seated in the venue. You end up with a much better sounding mix, because rather than cramming everything into a mono mix and blasting it out every speaker with the attendant intermodulation 'mush' you get a proportional mix where sources are going to very specific loudspeakers or loudspeaker groups and delivered with greater clarity and separation 'from' the mix rather than 'in' a mix.

I don't know what Apple's role in all this is. That does sound like some consumer/prosumer level nonsense. But in the touring and show world it's definitely not nonsense, but the shape of things to come.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this so clearly and so thoroughly!

"The venue's processing handles which source channels get sent to which speakers based upon the orientation of the speaker constellation in the venue and the required delay, equalization and dynamics processing required to produce the same orientation of spatial location and level as in the original mix."

Holy shit.
"lol, listen to op 'music' and you'll understand"....

https://sebastiansequoiah-grayson.bandcamp.com/
https://oblier.bandcamp.com/releases
https://youtube.com/user/sebbityseb

Re: Apple Spatial Audio Bullshit... or not

13
seby wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:36 am Thank you for taking the time to explain this so clearly and so thoroughly!
You're quite welcome!
"The venue's processing handles which source channels get sent to which speakers based upon the orientation of the speaker constellation in the venue and the required delay, equalization and dynamics processing required to produce the same orientation of spatial location and level as in the original mix."

Holy shit.
I know. I'm still working to wrap my head around this better, as it is becoming something I will be planning around and designing for and ultimately designing and specifying in the future.

I just sat through a webinar on the planning for, production environments within, and content and audience venues for live E-sports - which is also a huge complex production quagmire that in its fullest realization makes the broadcast production for NFL games look like child's play.

Immersive audio, E-sports, and combinations of mixed/augmented-reality in addition to or beyond VR is where things are going in my world. Talk about things that make you realize you're middle-aged!

Re: Apple Spatial Audio Bullshit... or not

15
Its only use it to improve spatiality for interactive audio while wearing earbuds, headphones, or VR headsets. People in that industry are excited about it, and it is going to help them make cool stuff with out a doubt. It seems like a lot of fun to play with in those areas, and I'll probably give it a try. My wife is already knocking on my door about it since she works as an augmented reality artist. For music, just like every single special enhancing procedure other than the creation of stereo, will be of no long term consequence. Quad... nope. Adding spring reverbs to stereo receivers... nope. 5.1 and other surround sound formats... nope. Just like all those technologies, this technology, IMO, has no staying power for music consumption. As soon as we had a speaker for each ear, we were cool and we still are. I'm sure TikTok will insist it's the new big thing though.
Was Japmn.

New OST project: https://japmn.bandcamp.com/album/flight-ost
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Re: Apple Spatial Audio Bullshit... or not

16
Kniferide wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:53 pm Its only use it to improve spatiality for interactive audio while wearing earbuds, headphones, or VR headsets. People in that industry are excited about it, and it is going to help them make cool stuff with out a doubt. It seems like a lot of fun to play with in those areas, and I'll probably give it a try. My wife is already knocking on my door about it since she works as an augmented reality artist. For music, just like every single special enhancing procedure other than the creation of stereo, will be of no long term consequence. Quad... nope. Adding spring reverbs to stereo receivers... nope. 5.1 and other surround sound formats... nope. Just like all those technologies, this technology, IMO, has no staying power for music consumption. As soon as we had a speaker for each ear, we were cool and we still are. I'm sure TikTok will insist it's the new big thing though.
Decent odds on this
"lol, listen to op 'music' and you'll understand"....

https://sebastiansequoiah-grayson.bandcamp.com/
https://oblier.bandcamp.com/releases
https://youtube.com/user/sebbityseb

Re: Apple Spatial Audio Bullshit... or not

17
I went to an open house at a local recording studio that is using Atmos. It turns out the whole "open house" was basically a big marketing push for (and probably paid for by) Dolby. There was a seminar during which only Atmos was discussed. It made me sad after a little while so my friend and I left before they played the music. I know the studio manager so I'll listen to it eventually at the studio. My takeaways from the 1/3 of the seminar I heard were:

1) Dolby needs to remain relevant and since surround 5.1 and 7.1 or whatever failed, this is basically 9.1, or something, I forget the number, maybe it isn't fixed...
2) Dolby is really pushing hard for back-catalog (Ryko was mentioned) to have their catalogs remixed in Atmos because...
3) Spotify, Apple, maybe others, are requiring (soon will require?) that music added to the streaming companies catalogs be mixed in Atmos because...
4) Something like 60% of all music is consumed through headphones/earbuds.
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