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Re: implied violence of the herrenvolk movement

11 by PASTA
Krev wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:24 pm Though there are clearly some ignorant young rednecks involved, this movement seems to be primarily old, stupid white men. As horrifying as their behavior is, their beloved bastions of liberty (red states) are rapidly becoming majority non-white, and their gerrymandering bullshit is going to lose potency.


I fear that we've been convincing ourselves of far to long. And underestimate the sheer depravity that arises from a fragile male ego. (not that there aren't women involved), and how far corporations, writ large will go to exploit that.
Anthony Flack wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:05 pm kiss Joe Manchin's coal mine

Re: implied violence of the herrenvolk movement

12 by ErickC
kicker_of_elves wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:09 pm
Krev wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:24 pm Though there are clearly some ignorant young rednecks involved, this movement seems to be primarily old, stupid white men. As horrifying as their behavior is, their beloved bastions of liberty (red states) are rapidly becoming majority non-white, and their gerrymandering bullshit is going to lose potency.
This unfortunately does not feel like the case here. In fact, our 7 county metro area seems like the only force holding us back from a state full of rednecks; young ones at that. I don't understand how a state that used to be so progressive (relatively, I suppose, but for the Midwest yeah) has backslid into the divide it's in now.
Meth. The answer is meth.
Total_douche, MSW, LICSW (lulz)

Re: implied violence of the herrenvolk movement

13 by BeyondThePale
ErickC wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:03 pm
Meth. The answer is meth.
You may be half joking, but you’re not wrong. Meth and fentanyl - America’s weird new nightmare pharmacy, like an express elevator into severe psych disorders.

There’s a lot of talk in our hospital about P2P meth. (Literally a plot point in breaking bad, but it’s real). With Sudafed so tightly controlled, production out here has shifted to the apparently far more toxic P2P product. What once was a slow descent into toothless psychosis is now way more rapid.

The scary part is how widespread it’s use is. A few months ago, we had a pt, a woman in her 70s, looked like Mrs Brady, with new psychosis and acute liver failure. All the scans, etc - couldn’t figure it out. Finally someone realized they missed drug testing her because she looked so apple pie I presume, and yup - meth.

Re: implied violence of the herrenvolk movement

16 by brephophagist
I get FM ErickC was not 100% serious here, but by giving "meth" serious consideration in this conversation as an explanation for escalating far-right violence, we are venturing dangerously close the same rhetorical territory as J.D. Vance. (edit in case I am not clear here: fuck J.D. Vance, forever.)

We do not regularly see cranked-up American eco-fascists preemptively murdering jogging oil company employees. Even interpreting meth's role generously: no one blames an arson on the gasoline. Meth did not create these ideas.

Ringo referenced this quote, but its following context strikes at the heart of this topic: (emphasis mine)
Frank Wilhoit wrote: Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit:

There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time.

For millennia, conservatism had no name, because no other model of polity had ever been proposed. “The king can do no wrong.” In practice, this immunity was always extended to the king’s friends, however fungible a group they might have been. Today, we still have the king’s friends even where there is no king (dictator, etc.). Another way to look at this is that the king is a faction, rather than an individual.

As the core proposition of conservatism is indefensible if stated baldly, it has always been surrounded by an elaborate backwash of pseudophilosophy, amounting over time to millions of pages. All such is axiomatically dishonest and undeserving of serious scrutiny. Today, the accelerating de-education of humanity has reached a point where the market for pseudophilosophy is vanishing; it is, as The Kids Say These Days, tl;dr . All that is left is the core proposition itself — backed up, no longer by misdirection and sophistry, but by violence.

Re: implied violence of the herrenvolk movement

18 by kokorodoko
brephophagist wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:21 pm
Frank Wilhoit wrote: Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit:

There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
Hey, I was thinking this exact thing the other day. It's the Schmittian position. I was thinking oh right every nation-based political system works likes this. Does it have to be like this? I don't want it to be.

Careful though. I think we should accept the existence of ingroups and outgroups, just allow us to be more creative and flexible with them and not take them as seriously. A movement identifying ingroups and outgroups at the outset as faults to be rid of, can be driven to attempt to form a singular onegroup to which everyone belongs - to which everyone has to belong.

For millennia, conservatism had no name, because no other model of polity had ever been proposed. “The king can do no wrong.” In practice, this immunity was always extended to the king’s friends, however fungible a group they might have been. Today, we still have the king’s friends even where there is no king (dictator, etc.). Another way to look at this is that the king is a faction, rather than an individual.
The king's friends are iow. the citizens of a nation (as long as it remains a nation against other nations).

As the core proposition of conservatism is indefensible if stated baldly, it has always been surrounded by an elaborate backwash of pseudophilosophy, amounting over time to millions of pages. All such is axiomatically dishonest and undeserving of serious scrutiny. Today, the accelerating de-education of humanity has reached a point where the market for pseudophilosophy is vanishing; it is, as The Kids Say These Days, tl;dr . All that is left is the core proposition itself — backed up, no longer by misdirection and sophistry, but by violence.
This last part though, I don't agree with at all. If anything there's more of such pseudophilosophy than ever. The particularly nasty parts are even coming back (racial biology and so on).
born to give

Re: implied violence of the herrenvolk movement

19 by losthighway
I saw a good video essay years ago titled Death of the Euphemism. It's thesis was that Reagan/Bush era American conservatives walked a rhetorical tight tope constructed by doublespeak and dog whistles. They had to cater to xenophobes and bigots while not offending moderates.

The shift was that Trump came right out and called Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers. It worked for him.

I'd say there is still some double speak at work, but it's thinner. Now people can say they're against antiracism. This way they don't have to say they're for racism as simple of a logical equation as it is to solve.

Re: implied violence of the herrenvolk movement

20 by pater_toma
bishopdante wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:18 pm
BeyondThePale wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:08 am
ErickC wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:03 pm
Meth. The answer is meth.
psychosis and acute liver failure... and yup - meth.
Pervitin.

The nazi government believed it was a good caffeine substitute, in the late 1930s, and added it as a general purpose food additive.

This was a big very mistake.
Believe it or not, meth is actually FDA approved to this day in the US for pharmacological use. Not sure how often it is prescribed, but the brand is Desoxyn.
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