I don't wanna go full EV until I can have solar panels added to the garage. Since that may be a few years away, we currently share a Honda Fit and drive it around on Econ mode (less power, but fine for city driving) most of the time.

zorg wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:59 am

Krev wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:56 pm Not crap. Production and disposal of the batteries is another matter, though.

Isn't this the thing though? People are so excited to declare that they've saved the planet that the ugly truth is kind of kept out of the conversation.

Lithium mining is one thing, but as I understand it, the current "plan" for disposal/recycling is that Mr. Musk invents something before it becomes a problem. Not terribly comforting. Also, unless your electrical grid is 100% renewable (not typical), you're still polluting whatever percentage that is. It's already been confirmed that driving a sensibly-sized fossil fuel car pollutes less than a EV Hummer.

So....probably we've got a ways to go. Ride a bicycle instead, not much to complain about there.

^This is pretty much where I'm at.

Also, better parking, access to better lanes, and us subsidizing the people who can afford one anyway is fucked.

As a concept, great. No more or less crap than ICE vehicles in their current state.

California's mandating no more ICE vehicles in 10 years or whatever is ridiculous. I have not met a single person who is behind this.

Optics.

Not sure about electric Hummers, but the positive environmental impact of EVs is significant. “No more or less” than ICEs? Absolutely not true. And the impact only improves with the build-out of sustainable energy, which can’t be said of ICEs.

Dealserships love themselves some ICEs, however, because the maintenance costs of ICE cars are huge.

Agree that cycling, walking, and public transportation are still much better options, and the latter two are how my family do the overwhelming majority of our getting around.

But EVs are VASTLY better than ICEs for the environment, and there is still massive opportunity for further improvements. Same can’t be said for ICEs.

enframed wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:38 am
Also, better parking, access to better lanes, and us subsidizing the people who can afford one anyway is fucked.

Yeah and don't get me started on the hand-outs that fucker Musk has gotten to be "innovative" using taxpayers money. But I suppose that's no different or maybe better than what goes on with Big Oil.

I thought this was fun....

enframed wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:38 am
As a concept, great. No more or less crap than ICE vehicles in their current state.

California's mandating no more ICE vehicles in 10 years or whatever is ridiculous. I have not met a single person who is behind this.

Optics.

zorg wrote: Also, unless your electrical grid is 100% renewable (not typical), you're still polluting whatever percentage that is. It's already been confirmed that driving a sensibly-sized fossil fuel car pollutes less than a EV Hummer.

So....probably we've got a ways to go. Ride a bicycle instead, not much to complain about there.

The 'what about the grid' questions are indeed fundamental to the whole project. And the answer to that question seems to be quite local. Colorado boasts a growing chunk of our grid is renewable (I believe approaching 40% last time I checked). A friend asked some energy administration goon what he thought about her adding solar panels to her house and his response was that if she wanted to go "off the grid" this is one way to do it (with many caveats) but if it's just tying into our megacorp's grid not to bother. The reason being that whatever you generate is and absurdly small percentage compared to the natural growth of solar done at a corporate/public level. Basically, wait a few years and we'll be majority solar/wind.

This is obviously only true in windy/sunny states, but it bodes well for California, and much of the western reach of the mid-western states. I heard Texas has a weirdly booming renewable energy industry for being all 'yee-haw oil extraction' about everything. In fact California made the news for going all solar for an hour or two earlier this month. I didn't get into the weeds, and it's obviously a baby step, but there's tremendous potential there. In the decade leading up to their 'all EV' deadline this could actually be really clean. There are economic concerns for the working class commuter, but subsidies can work. A recent study in CO said that after all the tax breaks, rebates etc a Coloradan buying a new Nissan Leaf is only out $5k. That's of course after having cash to cover the new car until all the rebates and tax returns work themselves out though.

zorg wrote: Ride a bicycle instead, not much to complain about there.

Simply and inarguably the best option all around. There is potential to have a revolution in urban planning that would be better environmentally, fight institutional racism, improve access to public utilities, improve community health etc etc. that just doesn't happen when we all have EVs in our garages instead of gas guzzlers.

losthighway wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:07 am

zorg wrote: Ride a bicycle instead, not much to complain about there.

Simply and inarguably the best option all around. There is potential to have a revolution in urban planning that would be better environmentally, fight institutional racism, improve access to public utilities, improve community health etc etc. that just doesn't happen when we all have EVs in our garages instead of gas guzzlers.

Just to negate my own point, I don't believe that bicycles can serve EVERY purpose, but certainly as you say they could really help. The bigger problem as I see it is that Americans don't just buy an EV or a gas car, but 2 or 3 of them in as large a size as possible...and drive everywhere.

I love biking but in the US bike commuting is basically like going to war. Critical Mass-types are out of their goddamn minds if they think the average person will subject themselves to being yelled at, spat on, doored and sometimes even killed. And this is in cities with bike lanes, shorter distances, and at least some established 'bike etiquette', the infrastructure and culture is basically non-existent in most suburbs or rural areas.

penningtron wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:24 pm I love biking but in the US bike commuting is basically like going to war. Critical Mass-types are out of their goddamn minds if they think the average person will subject themselves to being yelled at, spat on, doored and sometimes even killed. And this is in cities with bike lanes, shorter distances, and at least some established 'bike etiquette', the infrastructure and culture is basically non-existent in most suburbs or rural areas.

This is 100% true.

Living in the exurbs (my own fault/decision) and having shitty balance, it's been years since I've been on a bike.

Hoping in the future that cities and villages consider more low-speed city centers that are bike- and pedestrian-friendly.

To bring this back somewhat to the original topic, I'd love at some point to live in a place where I can either walk or hop in a low-speed electric golf cart when I'm lazy to get to everything I need on a daily basis. The thought of living in The Villages in Florida is repulsive for other reasons, but it does have that going for it.

jfv wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:56 pm To bring this back somewhat to the original topic, I'd love at some point to live in a place where I can either walk or hop in a low-speed electric golf cart when I'm lazy to get to everything I need on a daily basis. The thought of living in The Villages in Florida is repulsive for other reasons, but it does have that going for it.